Short-scale basses are no substitute for long-scale basses?

[MovinTarget]

Decreases scale, you mean? I don't think he is saying it makes the neck physically shorter, but that it sounds the same as it would on a shorter scale. Idk if it does, but maybe.

If you capo'd a 34" neck at the 2nd fret and then tuned down to standard open (so that at capo its EADG), it would be the same as some short scales, but it would have the floppiness of reduced tension since uncapo'd would be DGCE (I think).

This is why I said pages ago, you can't just change only the scale and expect it to sound EXACTLY like a 34", you would have to change the string tension, EQ, or your touch... or a combination of the three. There may even be factors I'm not thinking of.

 

[Mushroo]

Yes but... keep in mind that for your thought experiment leaving everything else the same (string gauge, pickup position) also means you have effectively re-tuned the thought experiment short scale bass to F#, B, E, A.

However, in real life, short scale basses are generally tuned standard which means the string tension is lower than on a longer scale bass with everything else being the same. That has a big impact on what the pickup senses (i.e: the timbre).

No, because you use short scale strings on a short scale bass (not long scale strings).

That's the thing a lot of people are getting wrong in this thread: They think that short-scale basses have loose, floppy strings. But that's only true if you use the wrong strings (like if you try to trim long-scale bass strings to size).

If you choose the correct strings, then you can achieve identical string tension on long- and short-scale basses (if that is your goal).

Are you familiar with "fanned fret" basses (like Dingwall)? I submit Dingwall basses as Exhibit A, that there's nothing wrong with making the scale length a couple inches longer or shorter. No two strings on a fanned-fret bass are the same scale length, and yet the tone and feel are consistent from string to string. The G string on a fanned-fret bass doesn't feel loose and floppy, or sound bad (even though it is the shortest string).

 

[Jeff Siddall]

Decreases scale, you mean? I don't think he is saying it makes the neck physically shorter, but that it sounds the same as it would on a shorter scale. Idk if it does, but maybe.

No, it doesn't sound the same, and you can do a real experiment yourself to prove it.

Take a 34" scale bass in standard tuning. Play an F (the first fret) of the E string and pluck it a few times, noting the timbre.

Now drop the tuning of the E string to a C, then fret the 5th fret. You will still be playing an F, but it will be the same tension and note as if you were playing the first fret on a 27" scale bass with the same strings and pickup position. Note the timbre now. It sounds significantly different even though it is the same note, with the same strings and pickup position.

 

[HelpImaRock]

I switched 7 years ago and haven't looked back.

 

[wiscoaster]

If you capo'd a 34" neck at the 2nd fret and then tuned down to standard open (so that at capo its EADG), it would be the same as some short scales...

He's 100% right. I just laid a short-scale and a full-scale bass side-by-side and from the nut on the short-scale and from the second fret on the long-scale they're exactly the same length, with the same fret positions. (This discovery noted for the benefit of other beginners, like me, who also, like me, at first said, "whaaa?!?!").

 

[frankie5string]

which is why the vast majority of bassists play long scale basses, and why double basses are as big as they are.

Very rarely do people play full-scale double-basses. The "standard" scale is actually 3/4 for portability and easier playing.

 

[Jeff Siddall]

No, because you use short scale strings on a short scale bass (not long scale strings).

That's the thing a lot of people are getting wrong in this thread: They think that short-scale basses have loose, floppy strings. But that's only true if you use the wrong strings (like if you try to trim long-scale bass strings to size).

If you choose the correct strings, then you can achieve identical string tension on long- and short-scale basses (if that is your goal).

Are you familiar with "fanned fret" basses (like Dingwall)? I submit Dingwall basses as Exhibit A, that there's nothing wrong with making the scale length a couple inches longer or shorter. No two strings on a fanned-fret bass are the same scale length, and yet the tone and feel are consistent from string to string. The G string on a fanned-fret bass doesn't feel loose and floppy, or sound bad (even though it is the shortest string).

Yes, you can achieve higher tension with heavier strings, but it is not always feasible to get the same tension. I am familiar with Dingwalls and have done all the multiscale calculations for my own instruments. Interestingly, even with the longer 37" scale length and a 0.130" B string, which is a common gauge for 34" scale instruments, the B string is still the loosest string. The tension on typical multiscale string sets still differs by more than 30%.

Since there isn't a lot of variety in extra heavy B strings, and almost all short scale are 4 string instruments, let's pick an E string instead. On a 34" bass with typical medium gauge 0.105" string (I will use D'Addario PSB105 since they publish their tension numbers) the string tension is 37.3 lbf. To get at least that much tension on a 30" scale bass would take a 0.125" E string -- a size typically used for B strings on 5 strings.

EDIT: Also, forgot to comment on this the first time: trimming a long scale string or buying a short scale string will not change the tension. Have a look at the unit weight for any length of string, from short to superlong, and they are all identical.

Also curious, D'Addario short scale sets are all super light to medium gauges sets. Those will be very low tension on a short scale bass.

 

[Mushroo]

Yes, you can achieve higher tension with heavier strings, but it is not always feasible to get the same tension. I am familiar with Dingwalls and have done all the multiscale calculations for my own instruments. Interestingly, even with the longer 37" scale length and a 0.130" B string, which is a common gauge for 34" scale instruments, the B string is still the loosest string. The tension on typical multiscale string sets still differs by more than 30%.

Since there isn't a lot of variety in extra heavy B strings, and almost all short scale are 4 string instruments, let's pick an E string instead. On a 34" bass with typical medium gauge 0.105" string (I will use D'Addario PSB105 since they publish their tension numbers) the string tension is 37.3 lbf. To get at least that much tension on a 30" scale bass would take a 0.125" E string -- a size typically used for B strings on 5 strings.

EDIT: Also, forgot to comment on this the first time: trimming a long scale string or buying a short scale string will not change the tension. Have a look at the unit weight for any length of string, from short to superlong, and they are all identical.

Also curious, D'Addario short scale sets are all super light to medium gauges sets. Those will be very low tension on a short scale bass.

I appreciate you crunching the numbers, thanks!

For the benefit of other people who might want to compare, here are links to the tension charts for D'Addario and GHS strings.

 

[Energy]

Because I have a somewhat painful degenerative osteoarthritis at the base of my left thumb I've been playing bass mostly with short-scale basses.

I don't see how a short scale bass would help with thumb issues...? I'm no orthopedic, though.

 

[wiscoaster]

I don't see how a short scale bass would help with thumb issues...? I'm no orthopedic, though.

I'm not sure either, but I know from experience it doesn't hurt as much either while playing or after playing. I'm just guessing, but I think two differences: 1) don't have to reach as far (reach affects the wrist angle, and wrist angle affects thumb movement); 2) don't have to press as hard (lower tension on the strings - generally speaking given the same weight strings) and your thumb is your leverage for pressing.

 

[Greywoulf]

I'm not sure either, but I know from experience it doesn't hurt as much either while playing or after playing. I'm just guessing, but I think two differences: 1) don't have to reach as far (reach affects the wrist angle, and wrist angle affects thumb movement); 2) don't have to press as hard (lower tension on the strings - generally speaking given the same weight strings) and your thumb is your leverage for pressing.

Not to mention the decreased all-around weight usually found with short scale basses...
There's not too many full size p-basses weigh in at 6+1/2 lbs, but my shorty CV Squier Mustang does! And if one has sore shoulders, back problems, wrist problems, painful thumbs or hands, arthritis problems, and/or perhaps just a general loss of stamina due to aging, every pound less your bass weighs in at is a much appreciated blessing!
I find it's usually the younger guys (tho not always) who say things like, 'who weighs their bass anyway?' Or "I don't even know what mine weighs and I don't care..." Whenever I see remarks like that I always think, well for now, sure... -But talk to me 20-30 years from now if you're still capable of playing bass...

 

[Doug4321]

Yes, I agree. I think lighter-weight strings are the ticket for short-scales.

It’s a little mysterious, but yeah, you generally have to use lighter gauge strings to get a string flexible enough to vibrate properly. Lighter gauge strings are more flexible. Those Rotosound flats, though, are very light gauge, yet are stiff. So you end up with a stiff string tuned loosely which doesn’t intonate correctly. It’s like dropping your tuning too low, the tone and intonation goes all out. And the note has a more unstable tuning, not a stable in-tune note. For a short scale bass that I want a nice vintage flat wound tone, I’ve gone to strings that are known to be especially flexible, including La Bella LTF, Dunlops, and Pyramid Golds. The GHS Precisions worked, too.

An overly stiff string actually has sharp overtones, due to the stiffness not allowing the shortened string to vibrate its full length, which effect is greater on the harmonics produced by the string being divided in half or greater.

I think a similar thing is that the B string on a standard 34” scale 5 string is often on the verge of not working correctly. They can be clunky. I think a multi scale makes a lot of sense for 5 strings, getting that B string longer than 34”, while keeping the G shorter for reach and tonal purposes.

At any rate, short scales seem fine to me, but it can be a little tough to get them working correctly depending on the strings on there, especially with flat wound strings. You want a nice flexible string, but you don’t want it to be too loose and floppy.

 

[B-Mac]

Which short scale? Which strings. I've owned a number of SS, including 4 Alembics, a 7ender Jag and currently have 2 Samicks that I really love, not to mention the 2 Ibanez SRC6 30" 6 strings. In most situations I could use them fine and no one in the audience would ever know I was playing a SS.

And I'd love one of these.


Sounds great.

The deep end on this lil'bass is greatly accentuated by lots'o bass face!

 

[DECEMBER]

let's pick an E string instead. On a 34" bass with typical medium gauge 0.105" string (I will use D'Addario PSB105 since they publish their tension numbers) the string tension is 37.3 lbf. To get at least that much tension on a 30" scale bass would take a 0.125" E string -- a size typically used for B strings on 5 strings.

a 34" .105 @E = same tension as
a 30" .116 @E
Stringjoy Guitar String Tension Calculator

 

[DECEMBER]

The only problem I've had with short scale basses is the lack of availability of heavier strings. They have inherently lower tension because they're short, so you'd think they'd compensate by making heavier strings. The biggest short scale round wounds are 45 65 85 105. To do drop-D I had to get a nickel-plated 110 from Stringjoy. (I tried a .125 from a 5 string set but it was too big and went 'thud'.) I like stainless steel, though, so I got my next set from Newtone in the UK, who custom makes them to your exact length. Only even number gauges. Hex or round core. Up to .200.
So I now have SS hex 44 64 84 108, which is perfect for DADG @A=432Hz, but they were almost $50 (custom plus foreign transaction fee, and 3-4 weeks to arrive).
You could go lower than DADG by using 5 string sets with 120/125, but there's nothing between 105 and 120 in short besides Stringjoy's nps 110.

 

[Pilgrim]

That's the thing a lot of people are getting wrong in this thread: They think that short-scale basses have loose, floppy strings. But that's only true if you use the wrong strings (like if you try to trim long-scale bass strings to size).

I agree. I can't tell any difference in my short scale string tension vs. long scale basses with the same Labella Deep Talkin' Flats.

 

[Mushroo]

I agree. I can't tell any difference in my short scale string tension vs. long scale basses with the same Labella Deep Talkin' Flats.

True story: One of my basses I owned 10 years before I realized it was 32" scale! The only reason I eventually figured it out is that I tried moving a set of used strings over from a 34" bass.

 

[Mushroo]

@Jeff Siddall helped open my eyes to the shortage of heavier-tension short-scale strings from the major manufacturers. I'm a math guy and it was interesting to look at the tension charts.

 

[wiscoaster]

Got my GHS Pressure-wound short-scale light-weight .40 - .96 strings today (really fast delivery, BTW) and slapped them on my Mustang, and wow!! what a difference these strings make. Not only do they sound great, and improve the sound of my Mustang 100%, but they're also just plain fun!!

Couple of interesting notes: these strings were clean -- I mean after doing the alcohol-wipe thing and I'm used to seeing black come off new strings up to three or four wipes, these were absolutely clean first wipe!! Second was that the whole setup (and I mean even down to pickup heights) needed tweaking. Which was unexpected, but I guess makes sense since these strings are both narrower and lighter, requiring less tension, and are farther from the fingerboard, which is going to affect setup. I'll let everything settle down for a few days then retweak, but as of now, even though my Mustang is not a "sound substitute" for my Squier full-scale PJ bass, it's got no apologies to make, it sounds great on its own accord, and I'm happy!!

Yay!!

(my thanks to the members that recommended GHS Pressure-wounds)

 

[Jeff Siddall]

a 34" .105 @E = same tension as
a 30" .116 @E
Stringjoy Guitar String Tension Calculator

Yes, theoretically correct, except you can't get a 0.116" string, at least not from D'Addario. The next biggest string they have after a 0.110" is a 0.125".

Admittedly, 0.125" is a big jump so, given the choice, a lower tension 0.110" would be a reasonable compromise.