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Should a Hired Gun Have Standards?

#21
Should a Hired Gun Have Standards?

Absolutely. Im not even a hired gun, but I have my standards. Actually, I may well become a hired gun very soon.
A friend of mine asked my and a drummer friend to jam. Well, the "jam" was more or less us being asked to play along with this guys original songs. Now, the songs themselves werent bad. But, Ive only got so much free time that I can put towards playing music, and Id much rather use that time to write and develop some of my own original music.
The way this guy talks though, it seems like he thinks we're a part of his band already. Ive played with this guy in the past, in my first band actually, and he was not the easiest guy to work with. The next time I see him Im going to have to lay down the line as far as what Im willing to commit to, how much pay its going to require for me to continue playing and whatnot. Im willing to be a hired gun for his project so long as the gigs pay, a minimum of $x dependin on the length of the gigs, how much time Im asked to rehearse and all that. We'll see where it goes.
 
#22
Tom_RCJ said:
Only the truth is truthful. Being untruthful doesn't serve anyone in the long run. Tell him exactly how you feel. You don't think the talent level is within your comfort zone. Tell him exactly what level of commitment you are comfortable with. Let him know where you stand. Otherwise, you're opening yourself and everyone involved up to needless drama. Just be forthright and understanding. It's better for everyone that way. Nothing kills the mood more than drama.
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+1
 
#23
I turned down a paying gig last year when I desperately needed the money because they were just godawful. Good guys but the drummer couldn't keep time and couldn't find the 1 after a fill, guitarist was stuck in the 80's complete with the hornet's nest MOSFET Marshall amp sound and the singer just screamed like a banshee. I have no idea how they get gigs. I just couldn't put my name behind it so I passed.
 
#25
jmattbassplaya said:
I've been there before. To me, those situations are never worth their time, even if you're hitting 2 out of the 3 of the holy band trifecta (that being good pay, good hang, and good music). I just can't stand it if the music isn't good because that means a few things:

1. I'm playing music that I don't enjoy playing,
2. I'm playing music that isn't helping me grow as a player, and
3. I'm playing music that others can negatively judge me and my abilities on

I simply could never be happy if I were to find myself in that situation unless the pay was super good. Even then, I doubt I'd be that thrilled to show up on a gig. Furthermore, if the music isn't there then I don't know how the money could be there either, but that's just my view on things.

It's up to you as to whether or not you want to continue in that band. Personally, I'd level with the guy and say something along the lines of, "Hey man, I know you're really excited about the potential of this group and would like to have me involved, but I honestly only do work as a hired gun. If you'd really like me to play with you guys then I am more than willing to cut out time to rehearse for any paying gigs you may get, but I really can't commit to anything beyond that since I tend to stay really busy most weeks. Hope you understand."
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Bingo.

I generally turn down most sub work because the rate of return on my investment of time usually isn't it worth it to me. If someone's offering a couple months of solid work, then I'm down. Learn two and a half sets to play one gig that grosses $85? Forget it unless it's a friend I'm doing a favor for (or returning a favor to them).

If you and the drummer are concerned about pay but don't dig the talent level, then I'd suggest just finding/starting a band outside the funk project. Even a start-up project could easily get seventy-five bones a man and you don't have to hid yourself behind your cabinet in shame while on stage.
 
#27
The owner would be pleased, he got a four piece band for the price of a three piece. Did you ask the DJ when did he get asked to do the gig? Could be more of that in your future,.

But the guy can get gigs, he might improve, he might get so many good paying gigs you have to ditch the funk band. He might employ a vocalist next and then you become the Ungrateful Undead Reggae Band From Hell.
 
#28
To start with. I do think that it's good for a hired gun to have standards. I've turned down gigs before because the band just isn't that good and, call it vanity if you want, I don't want to be known for playing in those kind of situations. I'd rather be known for gigging with good players, because that reputation allows me to choose from better and better gigs.

stringtapper said:
So here's the deal: the drummer and I don't mind playing gigs with this friend (the drummer is from the same home town) as long as they pay, but neither of us is interested in it being a "band" situation. In other words we would rather remain hired guns with no commitments beyond each gig we commit to.
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Normally, I would go with something like this if I thought they might have some promise but didn't want to join up full time.

BUT...

stringtapper said:
So the friend essentially fires the drummer right there but does it by telling everyone that the gig is cancelled, but then confides to me that it's not cancelled and he's going to find another drummer.
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This right here is a non starter for me. Having committed to the gig, I most likely would have played it through. But I would have bitten off a good portion of my tongue in the mean time and been pretty quick about clearing my gear, getting my pay and hitting the door as soon as the last song faded.

Being party to a lie because someone doesn't want to man up and do his duty as a band leader? No thanks. I don't have time for those type of mealy mouth politics.
 
#29
RockBassNow said:
It's easy enough to say you are too busy to commit to a band but you will play gigs when your available. Just negotiate a price per gig and stick to it.
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This is how I handle it. I face this from time to time. As a freelance musician, as soon as I hear, "we rehearse every Wednesday", my alarm goes off. I keep my responses at "My gigging calendar is full. If you need someone for a gig and want to spend an afternoon or evening to run through material, give me a call. This is what I charge per evening". And I leave it that.

Personally, there is nothing worse than playing with poor musicians, especially if they can't see it.
 
#30
Downunderwonder said:
But the guy can get gigs, he might improve, he might get so many good paying gigs you have to ditch the funk band. He might employ a vocalist next and then you become the Ungrateful Undead Reggae Band From Hell.
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That's my take as well. If the guy can get gigs, perhaps his real role is as band's business manager. Get a better guitarist and vocalist in and ask yourself if you'd still be interested.
 
#31
stringtapper said:
So here's the story: There is a guy I know who lives in my area who is from my home town and whom I've known for many years but kind of somewhere in between friend and acquaintance. I never knew the guy played music at all (the 90s are sometimes hazy for me) until he called me recently to see if I would be interested in subbing for his bassist in his reggae band in which he plays guitar and sings. He sends me a recording of some of his originals and a list of covers, everything from classic reggae to classic rock tunes played in reggae and ska styles to some newish pop stuff like Sublime. The instruments in the recording are passable, but the vocals… dear god the vocals… :bawl: I figure what the heck, it's work and it's just a sub.

So I learn most of the tunes a couple of weeks before the gig and we have a rehearsal. First of all the rate for the gig was supposed to be $100. He shows up at the rehearsal with a DJ who is supposed to spin samples and scratch while we play. Of course this also lowers the rate from $100 to $75 because the band is now a four-piece. Anyway, we start rehearsing and the drummer, who the friend has used before, can't keep time. Guy is dragging on every tune. Now mind you, with my standards the drummer not keeping time was only one thing wrong, the vocals were just as bad of an offense in my humble (though sufficiently qualified) musical opinion. So the friend essentially fires the drummer right there but does it by telling everyone that the gig is cancelled, but then confides to me that it's not cancelled and he's going to find another drummer.

I play in a sort of jazz/funk band as my own personal project and I figure my drummer could use the gig so I mention him and we set up another rehearsal with my drummer. Rehearsal goes well (instrumentally) and we're on the for the gig.

We play the gig and it goes ok for what it is. For the friend it seems the gig is the end-all be-all of musical experiences and he is "pumped." The drummer and I get our money and take off, figuring that was an interesting experience but glad it's over. Ever since the gig I have been getting phones calls and texts from the friend talking about recording a new "demo", asking if I know how to write songs and asking for us to play another gig. Basically it looks like he's thinking of us as being part of the band. Mind you, I have no idea what he's planning to tell the bassist that I thought I was only subbing for.

So here's the deal: the drummer and I don't mind playing gigs with this friend (the drummer is from the same home town) as long as they pay, but neither of us is interested in it being a "band" situation. In other words we would rather remain hired guns with no commitments beyond each gig we commit to.

Now there are several reasons for this. My drummer is a guitarist first and has two other art (read: non-paying) projects outside of our funk band. He's committed and is only interested in doing paid gigs outside of those projects. I am only interested in paid gigs period. The other, and probably biggest, factor is the friend himself. If you'll excuse my graduate music degree snobbery I frankly do not consider him to be a musician, but rather a guy who can play some guitar and (barely) sing a few pop songs. He does, however, seem to be able to book paid gigs, at least for now.

I've been in this type of situation before and I wonder if others have too. You know, a person whose enthusiasm for music and the idea of playing in a band outweighs their actual musical talent? In the past people like this just disappear, but I knew this guy before so I'm wondering how best to handle it. Do I grin and bear it, try to keep a straight face, and go ahead with the gigs as long as they pay? Also, how best to lay down the rules and let the guy know that I'm (we're; at this point the drummer and I are on the same page) not interested in it being a band situation? I don't want to hurt the guy's feelings so just telling him he sucks but I will gladly play with him for money doesn't seem right. Even though that's exactly what I would be doing! :eyebrow:

I freelance several musical gigs: bass, choral, low brass, arranging, and music notation typesetting. I look at my work as me using a set of skills I have developed through hard work and schooling in order to provide a service. Liking any specific music I'm working on isn't a prerequisite but it certainly is a bonus. But where to draw the line when you're working in an environment where the musicianship of other performers is not up to your standard?

Ok that was way longer than I thought it would be. Any experiences or stories of similar situations most welcome!

tl;dr

If something sucks should one go ahead and be a part of it just to make money?
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He is dishonest - so, whatever work you do with that guy make sure you get it in writing (contract). Personally, I would have already declined. Good luck.

EDIT: PS: FWIW - Keith Richards says working with crummy musicians kills ones soul. ;)
 
#32
A little bit of detail about the dishonesty part that I didn't want to get into before but is probably relevant in light of a couple of posts:

The friend told me later in the rehearsal that the kid who had been playing drums for him before, whom he "fired", apparently has some mental issues and had recently been put on lithium. The friend said he had never had the problem with him before that but ever since the lithium the kid seemed to have trouble focusing and now it seemed to be showing up in his playing. I know the friend well enough to know that he's not a devious person. Mostly because he's, well, honestly not that smart. :hmm: I wasn't totally comfortable with how he handled it, but in the end I think he just really didn't want to give the kid any more reasons to fall into a depression or something.

Anyway, as far the other bassist is concerned, I will be asking him about that as soon as I have "the talk" with him.
 
#33
It really all depends on where you are in your life and in your musical career. I do mainly fill-in work these days. And not only do I have standards, but they are very high. I don't play for less than $200. I get the set list way in advance (unless I agree otherwise and either really love or already know most of the material). I don't rehearse other than very special circumstances. I have been at this for more than two decades. Plus, if I drive to a rehearsal, set up, rehearse, drive home, etc. my hourly rate just went way down.

This sounds pretty harsh I'm sure. But I get more work than I want. I turn down at least as many as I take. It's a beautiful spot to be in. I don't HAVE to play any show. So I only do the ones I want. If I feel like going to the mountains/beach on a given weekend, you can offer me twice my rate and I am not playing. But usually on a weekend I feel like playing I can work with one or two bands and play all I can stand.

Don't sell yourself short guys (unless, of course, you really need the money). If yo do need the money, you pretty much have to take whatever crap goes along with the gig.
 
#34
jmattbassplaya said:
II just can't stand it if the music isn't good because that means a few things:

1. I'm playing music that I don't enjoy playing,
2. I'm playing music that isn't helping me grow as a player, and
3. I'm playing music that others can negatively judge me and my abilities on

I simply could never be happy if I were to find myself in that situation unless the pay was super good. Even then, I doubt I'd be that thrilled to show up on a gig.
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I know quite a few players who have quit well-paying, regularly-touring gigs because they were not into the non-monetary aspects of the gig.
 
#35
The music business is a business. I don't know if your statement that this guy can book paying gigs is literally true but that is a valuable skill set. Similar to the ones you've developed.

May I suggest that you negotiate a deal where by you continue to improve his band , hopefully while getting paid for the gigs. And he also gets paying gigs for your other "non_ profit" band. Without him playing in it.

This might require a bit of sitting down and talking honestly about his abilities.It could result in you're turning you and your drummer friend's more artistic endeavors into cash.
 
#37
My guitar player has a rule that I really like. For any gig, you must meet 2 of these 3 qualifications.
1. The money is good
2. The hang is good. (meaning you like the guys in the band)
3. The music is good.

He figures if you can get two of those things going, then the gig is worth it.
 
#38
hennessybass said:
My guitar player has a rule that I really like. For any gig, you must meet 2 of these 3 qualifications.
1. The money is good
2. The hang is good. (meaning you like the guys in the band)
3. The music is good.

He figures if you can get two of those things going, then the gig is worth it.
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I like this. It's a bit like the 'Cheap, Fast, or Good' rule. You can have any two.
 
#40
Let the front guy have the spotlight.
No - MAKE the front guy have the spotlight.
Disassociate you from him and his 'style.'
You're 'just the band.'

You only remember the name of 'the band' if the front guy is memorable.
Can you name The Crickets? The Pips? But you remember those names.

If people are going to remember the vocalist is horrible, let that be the name they remember.

If he's hiring you guys - rather than it being a general partnership - it's just a job. It's cool if you like the work as well as the money but trust me - lots of people who do good solid jobs are just in it for the money.

Two outta three ain't bad...
 

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