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Should I get an attorney?
- Thread starter ShawnStones
- Start date
I really want to read the whole thread, but you can also just see if an attorney will just send them a letter on his letter head. Often that makes people snap to. My father (an attorney) would do that often and companies would crap themselves to be compliant. Granted, I have a special circumstance, but it would be cheaper than filing an official complaint and all that entails.
Ever heard to keep your friends close and your enemies closer?
I'd be cool till you get your stuff back.
The wheels of justice turn very slow.
Get your gear back then get nasty.
Anyone up for a road trip?
I'd be cool till you get your stuff back.
The wheels of justice turn very slow.
Get your gear back then get nasty.
Anyone up for a road trip?
Thankful Birds has good advice - it's a business cost. you're a pro musician, this is a business loss. driving or shipping, whichever works best.
when you have your rig home, you can set about recouping your costs by whatever means.
also - my sympathy. i'm saddened, but not surprised, to hear of another band with a bit of success being managed by a person with more than a bit of knobheadedness.
when you have your rig home, you can set about recouping your costs by whatever means.
also - my sympathy. i'm saddened, but not surprised, to hear of another band with a bit of success being managed by a person with more than a bit of knobheadedness.
There is NO way you should have this shipped or picked up without you PERSONALLY inspecting and testing every piece of equipment making sure it's all there and in the condition you left it in. You need to get in your car and drive.
Hi Shawn. I happened to come across this thread and opened it out of interest when I saw the title. Once I opened it I was blown away. I was the touring bassist with 12 Stones (there, I said it) throughout 2004 and told them that I was leaving after the last tour into that September ended. I think that surprised them. I saw how things operated and knew it was the way to go. 
I'm really sorry to hear about the situation you are in. I hate hearing about this kind of stuff. I made sure that they paid for all of my travel to and from LA, health insurance, hotels, etc. They also provided all of the equipment I used(amps, cabs, strings, etc.) aside from the 2 basses I brought with me.
I hope you get all of your gear back soon. It sounds like there are a number of options presented here that make sense.
If you have any questions or want to talk feel free to PM me anytime.
I'm really sorry to hear about the situation you are in. I hate hearing about this kind of stuff. I made sure that they paid for all of my travel to and from LA, health insurance, hotels, etc. They also provided all of the equipment I used(amps, cabs, strings, etc.) aside from the 2 basses I brought with me.
I hope you get all of your gear back soon. It sounds like there are a number of options presented here that make sense.
If you have any questions or want to talk feel free to PM me anytime.
Shahit....that's just about in my back yard. Why don't we go get your stuff Shawn. I'll bring an extra $50 for your bail money.
I agree with those who say forget getting even, and just be happy if you can get back your gear. It's not fair, but I really think it is the best approach.
You don't have to pick it up yourself, but whoever you send should email you some cell phone pictures of the gear on the spot. That way you can ensure it's all there.
A creative option, if you have the right contacts: don't ship it, have a music store down there sell it on consignment for you. Give them an extra fair cut for picking it up. (This only works if you trust some music store people from your time down there.)
If the manager actually refuses to give up your gear to your representative, and you feel obligated to get even, I think you'll do better contacting a reporter than a cop or a lawyer. Let this play in the court of public opinion.
Does YouTube have a section for exposing this kind of garbage? You could put a video up of them playing through your equipment and annotate it with what happened.
But the path of least resistance is the one that will get your gear back before they ruin or lose it. If the only way to do it is to drive down there, then that's what you'll need to do.
You don't have to pick it up yourself, but whoever you send should email you some cell phone pictures of the gear on the spot. That way you can ensure it's all there.
A creative option, if you have the right contacts: don't ship it, have a music store down there sell it on consignment for you. Give them an extra fair cut for picking it up. (This only works if you trust some music store people from your time down there.)
If the manager actually refuses to give up your gear to your representative, and you feel obligated to get even, I think you'll do better contacting a reporter than a cop or a lawyer. Let this play in the court of public opinion.
Does YouTube have a section for exposing this kind of garbage? You could put a video up of them playing through your equipment and annotate it with what happened.
But the path of least resistance is the one that will get your gear back before they ruin or lose it. If the only way to do it is to drive down there, then that's what you'll need to do.
The rack:
Photo was taken in Feb of 2008 in Salt Lake City while on tour with 3 Doors Down and Red.
Once again, me and the rack onstage. Opening for Buckcherry at The Tabernacle in Atlanta. 10-09-2008
And now, MY rack onstage with them in Hattiesburg,MS. Obviously NOT ME pictured. 9-27-2009
Video proof. You can see it to the left of the drumset, and you can also see him tuning with my tuner, even though I was told "None of my equipment was used, just his head placed in my rack" The power condition was also plugged in.
Photo was taken in Feb of 2008 in Salt Lake City while on tour with 3 Doors Down and Red.
Once again, me and the rack onstage. Opening for Buckcherry at The Tabernacle in Atlanta. 10-09-2008
And now, MY rack onstage with them in Hattiesburg,MS. Obviously NOT ME pictured. 9-27-2009
Video proof. You can see it to the left of the drumset, and you can also see him tuning with my tuner, even though I was told "None of my equipment was used, just his head placed in my rack" The power condition was also plugged in.
And just so I'm clear, I was never denied access to the rack. Just told they would not pay for shipping.
And someone mentioned me telling them an even trade off, shipping for rental costs, I offered that and got this in return "Rental fees, not happening to my knowledge your gear is secured in storage."-direct quote. Even though I have obvious evidence the gear was not in storage and in fact used for the run.
And someone mentioned me telling them an even trade off, shipping for rental costs, I offered that and got this in return "Rental fees, not happening to my knowledge your gear is secured in storage."-direct quote. Even though I have obvious evidence the gear was not in storage and in fact used for the run.
IF I had the money, IF.....There'd be no question....I'd call in sick and already been down there and back, But I simply don't have the extra money right now to do so.....Which is why I am trying to explore every free/cheap way of doing this. With the attorney being a next to last resort, if e-mails to the manager/phone calls to the band/phone calls to both my local and Mandeville police, ect didn't solve it. Someone buy my damn Whammy so I can go get it. Haha.
Real sorry to hear about this, man. Hopefully you get everything back in one piece and in good shape. Sounds like this band is a bunch of mental juveniles that stopped maturing in 8th grade. Real interested to see how this plays out for you. Best of luck.
I used to like 12 Stones!! I don't think I'll be able to enjoy listening to them anymore... 
Sorry about your gear - I hope everything works out.
Sorry about your gear - I hope everything works out.
as far as im concerned they have something of yours and did not return it.that is stealing,another bass player is using your gear without your permission,that is stealing
what part of this is not stealing?
what part of this is not stealing?
jazzyitalian
Supporting Member
Depending upon what you want out of this you can bring what's called a "replevin proceeding" (return of property) or "tortious conversion" (monetary compensation for the fair market value of the property lost). Even though the property is yours, because they fired you and your property was in their possession, the band has an obligation to keep it reasonable safe and secure. They also have an obligation to provide you with access to it.
Depending upon the circumstances of the firing, they may even be responsible for covering the shipping to return it to you. If they fired you from a distance it may be constrrued that they also accepted the responsibility to return your property to you at their cost. Though this will depend upon what your state court's allow. A lawyer in your state should know the answer to this one.
In either instances above (Replevin or Conversion) you can recover reasonable costs and dispursements in bringing the claim to court. You might (though this isn't a slam dunk) recover attorney's fees. However, there needs to be some bad behavior on their part in order to get that back.
Save your correspondences and emails that you might have received from these guys. Also start compiling documents to support your ownership of the equipment just in case they try to deny that you ever left it with them. Photos, purchase receipts, serial numbers, or maybe you listed them in your property insurance forms with your insurance company. These are all valid forms.
Then see an attorney and have him or her send a demand letter for the immediate return of your property "or else....". You'll need to start a paper trail of at least one letter showing a documented attempt to get these items returned. That will help your case and may bring you closer to getting your attorney's fees paid for by this band.
Hopefully it won't come to this. Usually a demand letter on a law firms letterhead will get their attention. No one likes to deal with lawyers in disputes. It's too much of a pain for them. But hiring a lawyer to write a letter and deliver it certified will be a decent and inexpensive deal for you.
There you are. That's my legal advice...And I won't send you a bill for this one either.....
Jazz
Depending upon the circumstances of the firing, they may even be responsible for covering the shipping to return it to you. If they fired you from a distance it may be constrrued that they also accepted the responsibility to return your property to you at their cost. Though this will depend upon what your state court's allow. A lawyer in your state should know the answer to this one.
In either instances above (Replevin or Conversion) you can recover reasonable costs and dispursements in bringing the claim to court. You might (though this isn't a slam dunk) recover attorney's fees. However, there needs to be some bad behavior on their part in order to get that back.
Save your correspondences and emails that you might have received from these guys. Also start compiling documents to support your ownership of the equipment just in case they try to deny that you ever left it with them. Photos, purchase receipts, serial numbers, or maybe you listed them in your property insurance forms with your insurance company. These are all valid forms.
Then see an attorney and have him or her send a demand letter for the immediate return of your property "or else....". You'll need to start a paper trail of at least one letter showing a documented attempt to get these items returned. That will help your case and may bring you closer to getting your attorney's fees paid for by this band.
Hopefully it won't come to this. Usually a demand letter on a law firms letterhead will get their attention. No one likes to deal with lawyers in disputes. It's too much of a pain for them. But hiring a lawyer to write a letter and deliver it certified will be a decent and inexpensive deal for you.
There you are. That's my legal advice...And I won't send you a bill for this one either.....
Jazz
Shawn, I'm sorry about all of the trouble you are going through. Unfortunately I have heard several stories similar to this. Most of the people lost a good bit of their gear. I have a friend that was with a very popular band that carried a song on the charts for 20 weeks. When he left the band he lost his gear. I won't get into the details, but I can say that the band wasn't 100% at fault. Management is out for profit, and nothing more.
If you can get it by paying shipping, I would do so. Just have them ship the equipment to you COD (Cash on Delivery) This will ensure them no charges, and you will pay UPS, Fed EX, etc when the boxes get to your door.
If I had the money to lend or give in order to resolve your issue I would gladly give it. A musician's gear is normally a musician's livelihood. I have yet to be in your spot. I am sure to take my equipment with me no matter what if I am leaving. However, doing so isn't always easy or practical. Especially if there are flights to take.
Good luck.
............and I don't plan to support 12 Stones in any way until I see a resolution in this story. Call me cold or strange, but I don't care to give an artist money when they can't treat their musicians with respect.
If you can get it by paying shipping, I would do so. Just have them ship the equipment to you COD (Cash on Delivery) This will ensure them no charges, and you will pay UPS, Fed EX, etc when the boxes get to your door.
If I had the money to lend or give in order to resolve your issue I would gladly give it. A musician's gear is normally a musician's livelihood. I have yet to be in your spot. I am sure to take my equipment with me no matter what if I am leaving. However, doing so isn't always easy or practical. Especially if there are flights to take.
Good luck.
............and I don't plan to support 12 Stones in any way until I see a resolution in this story. Call me cold or strange, but I don't care to give an artist money when they can't treat their musicians with respect.
Seeing the post above of another TBer who is willing to go pick it up on your behalf is something I would consider. I'd probably feel better with it in his possession than your old bands at this point.
Get a group of local musicians here on TB. Assign one as power of attorney to recover your equipment. Provide him with proof it is your equipment and a copy of the POA. Then that group of musicians goes to their next gig and recovers the equipment. They take a video camera to show that it is being used in the gig and then send it back with a written statement and video saying so.
The whole chain of events is documented as well as the email that says that your stuff is in storage. Find out current rental fees and charge them a little above the fair price. Present the email that shows that you were supposed to be paid for the last show. You present all the evidence in small claims court. The manager will have to come back at his cost and appear or else you will get a default judgment. Put every person you can on the claim that way you have several ways to recover the money.
Pay the locals to ship it back by freight or truck.
The whole chain of events is documented as well as the email that says that your stuff is in storage. Find out current rental fees and charge them a little above the fair price. Present the email that shows that you were supposed to be paid for the last show. You present all the evidence in small claims court. The manager will have to come back at his cost and appear or else you will get a default judgment. Put every person you can on the claim that way you have several ways to recover the money.
Pay the locals to ship it back by freight or truck.
There's a lesson here for all to learn: If you're ever fired by a band, make sure you get the terms of the firing in writing, right there on the spot! If there's any dispute (i.e. "That's not your rack, that's our rack!") then note it (agree that you disagree on this/these point(s); serve notice on each other right away that there is a dispute, & get busy right away to get your ducks lined up!).
Terms of the firing should include any remaining pay, per diem, allowances, etc. due as well as a list of equipment to be returned, date to be returned by, who pays if it needs to be shipped, & storage fees if the equipment is not picked up/returned on time (this can cut both ways; if there's a deadline for you to pick up your own equipment, it's just as reasonable for the band to charge you storage fees if you're late!).
Honestly, when you sign on with a band, there should be a written, signed document that defined your and the band's responsibilities regarding each other, especially including specifics of how you'll deal with a termination, regardless of which party decides it's time to cut ties. Kind of like a "pre-nup". Hardly anybody joins a band expecting to leave someday, even though it happens way more often than not!
JM
Terms of the firing should include any remaining pay, per diem, allowances, etc. due as well as a list of equipment to be returned, date to be returned by, who pays if it needs to be shipped, & storage fees if the equipment is not picked up/returned on time (this can cut both ways; if there's a deadline for you to pick up your own equipment, it's just as reasonable for the band to charge you storage fees if you're late!).
Honestly, when you sign on with a band, there should be a written, signed document that defined your and the band's responsibilities regarding each other, especially including specifics of how you'll deal with a termination, regardless of which party decides it's time to cut ties. Kind of like a "pre-nup". Hardly anybody joins a band expecting to leave someday, even though it happens way more often than not!
JM
