Show Us Your Rob Allen Basses Part III

[nostatic]

Just bumping my question TTT.

Already sent an email to Rob but no response yet. Yes, I know the site says the Deep 4 is the closest to an upright tone, but which upright tone exactly? That's like reversing it and saying upright X gets closest to an electric bass tone...ok, which one? P? J? MM? soapbars? ash/maple? mahogany/rosewood?

I've heard clips on a maple mouse sounding really close to what I'm looking for as well ( )...any thoughts?

That sounds like an upright. I can't tell you what wood was used (maple, willow, etc) or bass construction or what they mic'd it with. It does sound like a mic rather than pickup on the bass.

Rob's basses sound like Rob's basses. There is some variation between models but Deep, MB-2, and Mouse sound more similar than different . If you want to nail that sound then you'll have to use an upright. If you want to get close, any of the above three will work. Imho the Deep will get closest in complexity of tone you're hearing on the upright. But it depends on technique, eq, etc.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Funny thing - I've always been set and forget with both that Deep 4 and my newer one. Deep 4 --> amp. Done. I do have to alter things a bit depending on room or the people I'm playing with every now and then.

If I tweak EQ, it's on the amp or the Deep itself. I've never needed any additional gear. With the new one I can also switch output and go with either the mag or piezo, and that also has its own way of EQ since it's a similar, but different sound. I'll switch up sometimes but I tend to use the piezo more.

I presume the Deep's onboard EQ are simple attenuators that cut from two prescribed ranges of frequencies. For example, if you want to cut the bass, what this would mean in practical terms is the low-frequency knob would not begin by cutting the lowest frequencies and gradually move up the way the Fdeck-HPF behaves. Instead, it would cut ALL frequencies in the LW band. That's why I use the HPF, which truly tightens the lowest lows and makes my cab drivers work in a more efficient manner - making overall bass tone sound better.

If your amp provides semi-parametric EQ control, great. Both of my amps do not, so I appreciate the fine-grained control of the ParaEQ box. It's like mixing a recording track: I know what adding or subtracting specific frequencies will do, and I know how varying the Q will affect overall tone; turning an unmarked, imprecise knob makes it more hit-and-miss -- especially if I'm doing it from the stage where I can't really hear how it sounds in the audience. Just another way to get to the same point faster.

 

[johndough247]

That sounds like an upright. I can't tell you what wood was used (maple, willow, etc) or bass construction or what they mic'd it with. It does sound like a mic rather than pickup on the bass.

Rob's basses sound like Rob's basses. There is some variation between models but Deep, MB-2, and Mouse sound more similar than different . If you want to nail that sound then you'll have to use an upright. If you want to get close, any of the above three will work. Imho the Deep will get closest in complexity of tone you're hearing on the upright. But it depends on technique, eq, etc.

Thanks for the reply. Have you used more than one deep, and if so, which one (in terms of wood, f hole or not) worked best for you (in the context of getting close to the upright tone)?

I'm only asking so many questions because I buy nearly all of my basses without seeing or hearing one in person (the drawback of living in a country with no real music shops and far from any country with them).

 

[nostatic]

I've owned a Deep 5 and Deep 4 (fretless), a couple of MB-2s (5-string, 4-string, fretted and fretless), and two Mouses (fretted and fretless). Plus a Solid 4 just for grins (that is a different beast but still has an RA sound/vibe to it).

If you want an "articulate upright" tone, imho a fretless Deep with an f hole gets closest. If you want a thicker/thumpier upright tone, a Mouse probably cops that best. MB-2 is inbetween.

I prefer walnut top on alder body with walnut neck and ebony fingerboard. I think going mahogany body (and neck) would also be more in the "upright" arena. imho maple neck and maple top over ash body move a little more towards traditional electric but it is subtle.

Thinking like an upright player is going to be the biggest factor in getting that vibe. Any of Rob's basses will get you in the tonal vicinity. The rest is up to the user.

 

[johndough247]

I've owned a Deep 5 and Deep 4 (fretless), a couple of MB-2s (5-string, 4-string, fretted and fretless), and two Mouses (fretted and fretless). Plus a Solid 4 just for grins (that is a different beast but still has an RA sound/vibe to it).

If you want an "articulate upright" tone, imho a fretless Deep with an f hole gets closest. If you want a thicker/thumpier upright tone, a Mouse probably cops that best. MB-2 is inbetween.

I prefer walnut top on alder body with walnut neck and ebony fingerboard. I think going mahogany body (and neck) would also be more in the "upright" arena. imho maple neck and maple top over ash body move a little more towards traditional electric but it is subtle.

Thinking like an upright player is going to be the biggest factor in getting that vibe. Any of Rob's basses will get you in the tonal vicinity. The rest is up to the user.

Thanks that was really helpful! I totally agree about the technique bit...alright, time to save for the deep then

 

[fish slapper]

As someone who has gone from DB to RA: No, a Rob Allen will not sound exactly like a DB particularly a DB unplugged. However, in modern volume situations, I have few opportunities to play DB unplugged. Therefore, in comparing my RA Mouse to my Shen with a Full Circle piezo pickup, the Mouse sounds "better" to my ears. There is more clarity of tone (probably due to control of undertones but I'm not that technically proficient to discuss this in detail). The fact that this 50+ player that has had some medical challenges has an instrument that is infinitely physically easier to manage is gravy. And to echo those above, the biggest factor in making a BG sound like a DB is hand technique. I've made a 5 string with an active pre and a MM pickup sound convincingly "upright" in tone.

As far as the RA models, I have participated in a head to head between a Mouse and an MB-2 at a GTG and my impression was the MB-2 was closer to BG in tone. More defined and aggressive. But this was very subtle. Probably more important is the fact that the Mouse is 30 inch scale vs. the MB-2 being 34. If you are going back and forth with other fretless, this would be important. The other knock I have with the Mouse is that it only goes to high C on the G string. It's kind of tough to do high register solos, but better than managing thumb positions on the DB.

I have yet to play a Deep 4 or 5 but would love to own one some day. In over 5 years of lurking on the TB classifieds, I've only seen two or three pop up and its been during times when the bank account would not accommodate. I think the fact they come up used so seldom speaks volumes. When I win the lottery or my rich Nigerian uncle comes through, I'll be calling Rob with an order.

BTW: my lone interaction with Rob indicated he's not super responsive to emails but is willing to talk on the phone. I'm sure he gets lots of tire kickers and figures if you dial him up, you're a bit more interested.

 

[nostatic]

As someone who has gone from DB to RA: No, a Rob Allen will not sound exactly like a DB particularly a DB unplugged. However, in modern volume situations, I have few opportunities to play DB unplugged. Therefore, in comparing my RA Mouse to my Shen with a Full Circle piezo pickup, the Mouse sounds "better" to my ears. There is more clarity of tone (probably due to control of undertones but I'm not that technically proficient to discuss this in detail). The fact that this 50+ player that has had some medical challenges has an instrument that is infinitely physically easier to manage is gravy. And to echo those above, the biggest factor in making a BG sound like a DB is hand technique. I've made a 5 string with an active pre and a MM pickup sound convincingly "upright" in tone.

^^^ this. Having just picked up DB again at age 51, I'm enjoying and hating it at the same time. Nothing sounds as cool as unamplified DB - especially arco (even though I suck at it). But amplified DB is another story and sonically my Deep 4 crushes it. It also is way easier to haul. The only thing the Deep 4 can't do is look like an upright, and there are bandleaders around who will insist on a DB. fwiw I didn't pick one back up to satisfy them, but rather just to try and stretch my horizons as a bassist. Even if I don't take it out and gig it, it'll influence what I hear and play.

 

[KJung]

^^^ this. Having just picked up DB again at age 51, I'm enjoying and hating it at the same time. Nothing sounds as cool as unamplified DB - especially arco (even though I suck at it). But amplified DB is another story and sonically my Deep 4 crushes it. It also is way easier to haul. The only thing the Deep 4 can't do is look like an upright, and there are bandleaders around who will insist on a DB. fwiw I didn't pick one back up to satisfy them, but rather just to try and stretch my horizons as a bassist. Even if I don't take it out and gig it, it'll influence what I hear and play.

+1

 

[TapyTap]

All other variables being equal, how does the "f-hole" alter the sound of Rob's basses vs. no "f-hole" in the top?

 

[KJung]

All other variables being equal, how does the "f-hole" alter the sound of Rob's basses vs. no "f-hole" in the top?

From my experience, it is more of an aesthetic thing than a tonal thing. At most (comparing my 'f hole' versus 'non f hole' Mouse), you get a smidge more volume when practicing unplugged.

Unless you totally dig the look, I wouldn't bother.

 

[FenderP]

So my D4 is used either in a big band (my own stuff which I'm recording now) or a few bands I sit in with as well as small ensemble stuff. A big part of the getting that upright-ish sound on any bass is using your ear and playing differently. As a P bass player nearly my whole life, I approach the D4 very differently in a jazz setting. My fingers instinctively move up a bit and up over the end of the neck and I truly play it like an upright sometimes wth the sides of my fingers. You need to have a 'sound' in your head, too. It's a combination of a lot of things that you just get over time. I've been playing jazz for almost as long as I've been playing bass so I've had plenty of time to figure that out!

I'd say with the right technique at worst you're going to sound like an upright with a piezo just with a touch less body since you don't have the big chamber of a true DB. I know this to be true moreso because I had the Takamine TB10 which nailed the upright sound a bit more but was not nearly as joyful to play in my hands. It will never be 100%. Close enough for government work? You betcha.

If you want to simulate arco, get a volume pedal or be able to just do a volume swell with the knob (which can be tricky depending on what else you may need to do). Learned that one years ago To me it's the only real negative of basses like any of RA's, the Turner Renaisssance, and the Takamine. Small price to pay.

In nearly every situation - incuding big band - people love the tone. And yes, for those leaders who visually need to see a double bass, I don't care how good your tone is. They'll shun you. That's fine. I have yet to encounter someone who doesn't dig the Rob Allen, either in its looks or its sound. For lack of a better phrase, it just works.

BTW: my lone interaction with Rob indicated he's not super responsive to emails but is willing to talk on the phone. I'm sure he gets lots of tire kickers and figures if you dial him up, you're a bit more interested.

Rob's just busy and over the years I've found he can sometimes be spotty on e-mails. I get that way, too. I've had great conversations at length with Rob and he will also call you if he has a question while making your bass if he wants to see what you think. Although I have to say he's got VERY good intuition once you talk to him and tell him what you want. The wood combo he's put together for all three of mine (2 x D4, 1 x S4) have been outstanding and give me exactly the tone I was hearing in my head.

Were my D4s expensive? You bet. When Rob and I talked about my D4 it was more of a concept at the time, so I got the, or at least one of the fist ones he made. In the nearly 10 years between my two, I could tell the difference and subtle refinements he learned by making them.

The Mouse is a killer instrument; I played one once at Bass Northwest. As much as I've tried, I'm not a short scale guy. I'm also not a 35" or 5-string guy, either. I also don't want a high E. The new D4's neck was literally made like a P neck and not 3 full octaves, so it very much differs from most things he normally makes. It was actually one of the things that annoyed me to a degree on the old D4 and currently on the S4. Right now I can go between any of my P basses (fretted or fretless) and the D4 and it's seamless. If coming from or going to the S4, it's a slight adjustment. The finger memory is a touch off (and one reasom I may finally sell that S4).

But to my years the Mouse can have more lower end bloom, but it's not as controlled or complex as what I get on my D4. I first played an MB-2, and I would agree that Rob's basses have a common core sound that you kinda know when you hear it. The differences are subtle. Honestly, you can't go wrong with any of them, and whether you get fretted or fretless, lined or unlined, mag or piezo, they are all killer instruments.

Can you tell I love mine?

 

[FenderP]

I presume the Deep's onboard EQ are simple attenuators that cut from two prescribed ranges of frequencies. For example, if you want to cut the bass, what this would mean in practical terms is the low-frequency knob would not begin by cutting the lowest frequencies and gradually move up the way the Fdeck-HPF behaves. Instead, it would cut ALL frequencies in the LW band. That's why I use the HPF, which truly tightens the lowest lows and makes my cab drivers work in a more efficient manner - making overall bass tone sound better.

If your amp provides semi-parametric EQ control, great. Both of my amps do not, so I appreciate the fine-grained control of the ParaEQ box. It's like mixing a recording track: I know what adding or subtracting specific frequencies will do, and I know how varying the Q will affect overall tone; turning an unmarked, imprecise knob makes it more hit-and-miss -- especially if I'm doing it from the stage where I can't really hear how it sounds in the audience. Just another way to get to the same point faster.

All my amps are either just bass/treble or bass/mid/treble. Parametric EQ is too complex for me to worry about. I'm simple that way.

What I've found is that in the studio, the B-15 sounds lovely with the D4 in many scenarios, but I don't love it as much live - especially outdoors. There's a reason the old Polytone amps were widely used with uprights; the combo is really just kinda magic to my ears. The Polytone I have (S15B) is a bit unwieldy to carry around but not nearly as bad as the B-15 or B-18 (which I used last year to record the D4 using the mag pickup on a friend's rock song).

For fun, I just ordered one of the PJB Double Four amps to see if it will work well with my Deep to make it as my regular amp. As much as I like the Polytone I've been using as well as occasionally schlepping my B-15 (not my B-18; WAY too heavy), hard to resist not trying a 75W, 9lb, shoebox sized amp. I'll be happy as a clam if I can sling my D4 over one shoulder, my stand on the other, amp in one hand, big band music in another. Done. One trip.

 

[FenderP]

Already sent an email to Rob but no response yet. Yes, I know the site says the Deep 4 is the closest to an upright tone, but which upright tone exactly? That's like reversing it and saying upright X gets closest to an electric bass tone...ok, which one? P? J? MM? soapbars? ash/maple? mahogany/rosewood?

So my second D4 which replaced the one Ukiah has now has both piezo (active) and mag (passive) with discreet tone and output jacks/controls for each. I mainly use the piezo, though. Koa top, ebony unlined 21-fret board. All of my Ps (including the S4) have rosewood boards.

He also milled out the inside a bit to have thinner walls which affects the sound, too. I also have a taller bridge saddle and thus, a higher mass bridge, to give me higher action. Both of those are not things he normally does, but came out of conversations we had about the sound I was going for or things I did to mod the old D4 I wanted a stock. He knew a little more about my preferences since this was bass #3, but he made the walls suggestion and I wanted the bridge.

 

[asbs]

FenderP is right about the DB sound.

Since I have my deep5, I listen a lot of classical DB players and copy bass lines from them.
Naturally my hands tech changed and I use now a lot of open string note, slap, ghost notes... and all DB player's tech and musical approche.

The result is now, even with a EB I sound more like à DB.

I never tryed a mouse. It was my first choice when I placed my order to Rob.
Then I realysed that the B string is really in my playing and also 21 frets is something I wanted to have.

So I don't know if the mouse or the deep bring the "best" DB sound, but I am sure that you can't go wrong with one of them.

 

[KJung]

FenderP is right about the DB sound.

Since I have my deep5, I listen a lot of classical DB players and copy bass lines from them.
Naturally my hands tech changed and I use now a lot of open string note, slap, ghost notes... and all DB player's tech and musical approche.

The result is now, even with a EB I sound more like à DB.

I never tryed a mouse. It was my first choice when I placed my order to Rob.
Then I realysed that the B string is really in my playing and also 21 frets is something I wanted to have.

So I don't know if the mouse or the deep bring the "best" DB sound, but I am sure that you can't go wrong with one of them.

+1 It is all about approach, feel and technique. If you are playing an acoustic jazz gig in a small room, and playing ballads with lots of whole notes down low, of course, the RA basses are going to not quite get you there.

Swinging in a club at moderate to loud volumes, with the right approach, amplification and technique, it will get you 90%+ there. Pretty amazing. Even my current fretted Mouse cops the DB vibe reasonably well in those situations.

 

[asbs]

Here a video I just snaped with the Iphone.
The phone was very close to the bass, so you can hear a lot of noise.
The sound is not so good but maybe that would help to catch the sound of the deep.
I have to say that in good condition, there is a lot more low, warm, complexity...every thing that makes this bass a great one.
Let say it was a good taste for the Iphone !!!
(bass line is Nhop inspired, from the tune Oléo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06oUjSDKpyQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[TapyTap]

From my experience, it is more of an aesthetic thing than a tonal thing. At most (comparing my 'f hole' versus 'non f hole' Mouse), you get a smidge more volume when practicing unplugged.

Unless you totally dig the look, I wouldn't bother.

Interesting. Thanks for the input.

Here a video I just snaped with the Iphone.
The phone was very close to the bass, so you can hear a lot of noise.
The sound is not so good but maybe that would help to catch the sound of the deep.
I have to say that in good condition, there is a lot more low, warm, complexity...every thing that makes this bass a great one.
Let say it was a good taste for the Iphone !!!
(bass line is Nhop inspired, from the tune Oléo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06oUjSDKpyQ&feature=youtu.be

I really appreciate this. Thank you for taking the time to post a video.

 

[jazztonebass]

Here a video I just snaped with the Iphone.
The phone was very close to the bass, so you can hear a lot of noise.
The sound is not so good but maybe that would help to catch the sound of the deep.
I have to say that in good condition, there is a lot more low, warm, complexity...every thing that makes this bass a great one.
Let say it was a good taste for the Iphone !!!
(bass line is Nhop inspired, from the tune Oléo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06oUjSDKpyQ&feature=youtu.be

Nicely done. How did you amplify the Deep 5? Any EQ?

 

[asbs]

I cannot really say that the bass was amplifed on this film...
The bass is almost flat EQ, cut a little bit the bass for not saturing the I phone's mic.
Then plug into a Jamman Digitech, who go directly to my home studio speakers (sheap one; indeed).

 

[Groove Doctor]

Has anyone played a Mouse through a Bergantino IP112? How did it sound - more EB or more DB-like?

How does the Berg compare to, say, an Acoustic Image setup?