sid vicious playng ability?

[-Asdfgh-]

Bull$h1t.

The Ramones are the original. Full Stop. Period. End of Sentence.

Sid Vicious used to follow Dee Dee Ramone around in NYC as if he were Jesus Christ Himself.

McLaren spent lots of time in New York, so it would be no surprise if the Ramones and New York Dolls were an influence on the decision to form a punk band in the UK. But then in the USA things went back further (MC5) and in the UK the likes of Wilko had already laid the groundwork that was a reaction against progressive rock virtuosity so there was somewhere fertile into which to sew the seeds of punk.

But then John Lydon/Rotten is a noted fan of Kate Bush and Jetho Tull's Aqualung was apparently influential for him. (And on her part, Kate Bush is a Killing Joke fan).

And then Lydon and Strummer were also big reggae fans, and one of the popular bands of the ska revival, The (English) Beat started out playing some big slabs of what sounds like punk. (Listen to the 1979 Peel Session, and a couple of punk songs make their way onto the first album).

It's all music isn't it? On my iPod I currently have Killing Joke and Glen Miller

 

[Son of Wobble]

McLaren spent lots of time in New York, so it would be no surprise if the Ramones and New York Dolls were an influence on the decision to form a punk band in the UK. But then in the USA things went back further (MC5) and in the UK the likes of Wilko had already laid the groundwork that was a reaction against progressive rock virtuosity so there was somewhere fertile into which to sew the seeds of punk.

But then John Lydon/Rotten is a noted fan of Kate Bush and Jetho Tull's Aqualung was apparently influential for him. (And on her part, Kate Bush is a Killing Joke fan).

And then Lydon and Strummer were also big reggae fans, and one of the popular bands of the ska revival, The (English) Beat started out playing some big slabs of what sounds like punk. (Listen to the 1979 Peel Session, and a couple of punk songs make their way onto the first album).

It's all music isn't it? On my iPod I currently have Killing Joke and Glen Miller

McClaren in fact managed the New York Dolls in their final incarnation, as documented in "Please Kill Me" and other books on the punk movement.
It was Malcolm who put David Johansen in the hammer and sickle T-shirt, which went over like the proverbial Lead Zeppelin.

 

[BazzTard]

the title suggests that Sid actually PLAYED the bass, I doubt he ever did, not well anyway.

we played Bodies at our very first gig, in 1979. we worked out it sounded more authentic if one guitarist played out of tune

 

[Imaginary Pony]

Bull$h1t.

The Ramones are the original. Full Stop. Period. End of Sentence.

Sid Vicious used to follow Dee Dee Ramone around in NYC as if he were Jesus Christ Himself.

You are looking at this from an American perspective. I'm not. The punk movement in Britain was different. Richard Hell had more authentic punk cred than the Ramones. What was left of the Dolls, Johnny Thunders and Jerry Nolan were on the scene in London, and Steve Jones had Sylvain's guitar.

The Ramones were fun, but they weren't a super influence over here.

 

[Imaginary Pony]

I must have been one of the 10,000, if they could 'do it' then anyone could ... right?

That's exactly right. The DIY ethic. Bands like The Damned, The Banshees, X Ray Spex, The Buzzcocks, The Slits, The Nipple Erectors, The Vibrators, Eater... Noone would have given them a chance to even play if the Pistols hadn't happened.

Even Bands like XTC were considered punk, as were the Police and Elvis Costello.

I know it's easy to dismiss the Pistols as some sort of boy's band under the machiavellian rule of Talcy Malcy, but that's mainly coming from people who have swallowed McClaren's post-hoc rationalization.

So when are Fender going to issue a signature Sid Vicious P-Bass? (ha-ha!!)

They won't openly say it, given the Murder of Nancy Spungeon, and the fact that "Sid Vicious" is a trade Mark which belongs to Glitterbest, but...

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Imaginary Pony]

Johnny Rotten saw the Ramones in London at the Roundhouse when they debuted there, and the Pistols were still but a glimmer
in Malcolm's eye.

Not really. the Pistols played their first gig in November 75. The Ramones played the Roundhouse in July 76. The Clash had already formed by then, after the Pistols supported the 101'ers at the Nashville in April, and Joe Strummer was so impressed he disbanded the 101'ers.

The Pistols' first record contract with EMI dated from October 76.

The Ramones had no time to influence The Pistols, The Damned or anyone else of note on the Early English Punk scene.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Not really. the Pistols played their first gig in November 75. The Ramones played the Roundhouse in July 76. The Clash had already formed by then, after the Pistols supported the 101'ers at the Nashville in April, and Joe Strummer was so impressed he disbanded the 101'ers.

The Pistols' first record contract with EMI dated from October 76.

The Ramones had no time to influence The Pistols, The Damned or anyone else of note on the Early English Punk scene.

I stand corrected! Thanks.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Not really. the Pistols played their first gig in November 75. The Ramones played the Roundhouse in July 76. The Clash had already formed by then, after the Pistols supported the 101'ers at the Nashville in April, and Joe Strummer was so impressed he disbanded the 101'ers.

The Pistols' first record contract with EMI dated from October 76.

The Ramones had no time to influence The Pistols, The Damned or anyone else of note on the Early English Punk scene.

It is easy to forget just how rapid was the succession of events at this time. As you say, there was "no time" to emulate the Ramones as it was all happening at once. Fair to assume, however, that Sid's fascination with Dee Dee Ramone was occurring simultaneously, on a separate track, as it were... Meanwhile, Matlock looked less a Ramone wannabe than a Bay City Rollers alternate -- and weren't the BCR what the Ramones were aiming for?
So maybe the real godfathers of punk were the Rollers?

Imaginary Pony, I appreciate your perspective and your knowledge, but I am disappointed that you give Malcolm such little credit in the
grand tale -- he is one of my favorite elements, I've got a soft spot for charlatans, being a bit of one myself - and I consider Malcolm one of the more
entertaining, to be sure. Can you elaborate on your thoughts regarding his contribution? Or lack thereof. Thanks.

 

[Funk$tar]

Well at the time, most Punk bands weren't that skilled or experienced when it came to playing their own instruments, they knew a few chords and that was it. But after a few years or maybe months, they became a little more experienced and developed. Sid Vicious wasn't a bad bassist at all, from the stories I've heard, he was actually a really dedicated bass player and a fast learner. So I would say he was still learning, but just because someone is still at the learning stage doesn't mean they are "bad." We all are actually still learning, but to call him a bad bass player is probably wrong. We didn't get to see him develop into the bassist he longed to be, plus we've only heard him play so little, so you can't really say he sucked.
Judging from the tracks he's played on, like "Bodies," I think he could've been one hell of a bass player like Paul Simonon if he could've stayed with us a little bit longer.
All I can really tell you is that Sid was a bass player and played a crucial part in Music History.

 

[Imaginary Pony]

So maybe the real godfathers of punk were the Rollers?

Slade! Polydor had been chasing to sign the Pistols for several months, but Malcolm refused to sign with them. Slade were on Polydor's books, and no doubt they would have known how to handle the chaos that surrounded the Pistols, as they had the Slade experience.

Imaginary Pony, I appreciate your perspective and your knowledge, but I am disappointed that you give Malcolm such little credit in the
grand tale -- he is one of my favorite elements, I've got a soft spot for charlatans, being a bit of one myself - and I consider Malcolm one of the more
entertaining, to be sure. Can you elaborate on your thoughts regarding his contribution? Or lack thereof. Thanks.

Malcolm was a shyster, a charmer and a chance taker. He certainly played a big part in the Pistols thing, but they weren't his puppets. The whole "situationist art project" thing is overplayed, although there's no doubt there's some truth in there.

He saw how to take advantage of the events, more than being an agent for provoking them.

Johnny Rotten had an incredible charisma, and Steve and Paul were a damn tight basis for a band. They were respected as musicians by people like Pete Townshend and Phil Lynnot. Glen Matlock wrote some decent catchy pop melodies. Malcolm took that ball and ran with it.

If he'd been the Svengali mastermind that he claims through "The Great Rock and Roll Swindle" then he could have done it again with Bow Wow Wow. People treat that film as if it were the truth, despite the talking dogs and the portrayal of Steve Jones as an illiterate idiot.

I've got a soft spot for Malcolm, and through his work got to know rap, hip hop (Buffalo Gals Duck Rock etc) and Afrika Bambaata. I was very sad when he died.

Catch the Hat...

 

[Son of Wobble]

Slade! Polydor had been chasing to sign the Pistols for several months, but Malcolm refused to sign with them. Slade were on Polydor's books, and no doubt they would have known how to handle the chaos that surrounded the Pistols, as they had the Slade experience.


Malcolm was a shyster, a charmer and a chance taker. He certainly played a big part in the Pistols thing, but they weren't his puppets. The whole "situationist art project" thing is overplayed, although there's no doubt there's some truth in there.

He saw how to take advantage of the events, more than being an agent for provoking them.

Johnny Rotten had an incredible charisma, and Steve and Paul were a damn tight basis for a band. They were respected as musicians by people like Pete Townshend and Phil Lynnot. Glen Matlock wrote some decent catchy pop melodies. Malcolm took that ball and ran with it.

If he'd been the Svengali mastermind that he claims through "The Great Rock and Roll Swindle" then he could have done it again with Bow Wow Wow. People treat that film as if it were the truth, despite the talking dogs and the portrayal of Steve Jones as an illiterate idiot.

I've got a soft spot for Malcolm, and through his work got to know rap, hip hop (Buffalo Gals Duck Rock etc) and Afrika Bambaata. I was very sad when he died.

Catch the Hat...

Thanks for taking the time to reply, all very interesting points, particularly your notions regarding Slade, a band whose history I am not terribly familiar
with, although I should be, having read Noddy's autobiography, which I remember as one of those typical amiable music hall-style memoirs, long on warm feeling but short on grit. Is there a more compelling biography of Slade on the bookshelves?

 

[MegaSwing]

Well at the time, most Punk bands weren't that skilled or experienced when it came to playing their own instruments, they knew a few chords and that was it. But after a few years or maybe months, they became a little more experienced and developed. Sid Vicious wasn't a bad bassist at all, from the stories I've heard, he was actually a really dedicated bass player and a fast learner. So I would say he was still learning, but just because someone is still at the learning stage doesn't mean they are "bad." We all are actually still learning, but to call him a bad bass player is probably wrong. We didn't get to see him develop into the bassist he longed to be, plus we've only heard him play so little, so you can't really say he sucked.
Judging from the tracks he's played on, like "Bodies," I think he could've been one hell of a bass player like Paul Simonon if he could've stayed with us a little bit longer.
All I can really tell you is that Sid was a bass player and played a crucial part in Music History.

This is all very charitable to him—and anyone's legacy can be rehabilitated somewhat in retrospect—but the real truth is that Sid Vicious was a charlatan, a drug addict and a homicidal psychopath who cynically milked his 15 minutes of fame with next to no discernible musical ability. And we're still talking about him, which is everything he ever dreamed of in the first place.

Just sayin'.

 

[Matt O]

You are looking at this from an American perspective. I'm not. The punk movement in Britain was different. Richard Hell had more authentic punk cred than the Ramones. What was left of the Dolls, Johnny Thunders and Jerry Nolan were on the scene in London, and Steve Jones had Sylvain's guitar.

The Ramones were fun, but they weren't a super influence over here.

100%

If I were forced to pick a single person as the one that inspired the "look" it would be Richard Hell. Everybody wanted to look like that dude. And forced to pick one band that influenced the "sound" it would be the Dolls. Listen to Never Mind The Bollocks and you can hear the strong Dolls influence, hardly any Ramones influence. Sid May have followed Dee Dee around but it was probably for other reasons.
Richard Hell, looking cooler than anybody:

 

[Son of Wobble]

100%

Sid May have followed Dee Dee around but it was probably for other reasons.
View attachment 508783

Doubly hilarious!

 

[Son of Wobble]

This is all very charitable to him—and anyone's legacy can be rehabilitated somewhat in retrospect—but the real truth is that Sid Vicious was a charlatan, a drug addict and a homicidal psychopath who cynically milked his 15 minutes of fame with next to no discernible musical ability. And we're still talking about him, which is everything he ever dreamed of in the first place.

Just sayin'.

Can't we split the difference and agree that whilst Sid was a homicidal psychopath and cold-blooded murderer, he was also coming along nicely with his scales?

 

[MegaSwing]

The only scales he knew about were for weighing things.

But until he crossed the line, he was pretty funny.

 

[Son of Wobble]

100%

If I were forced to pick a single person as the one that inspired the "look" it would be Richard Hell. Everybody wanted to look like that dude. And forced to pick one band that influenced the "sound" it would be the Dolls. Listen to Never Mind The Bollocks and you can hear the strong Dolls influence, hardly any Ramones influence. Sid May have followed Dee Dee around but it was probably for other reasons.
Richard Hell, looking cooler than anybody:
View attachment 508783

Opening up another can of worms of the "who was there first" variety, but -- this photo of Hell begs the question of whether Paul Simonon's paint-spatters were an attempt to obscure the fact that he had appropriated wholesale Hell's use of text/sloganeering on both instrument and clothing.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Richard Hell Signature Mustang Bass, request yours today, woop!

 

[Matt O]

Opening up another can of worms of the "who was there first" variety, but -- this photo of Hell begs the question of whether Paul Simonon's paint-spatters were an attempt to obscure the fact that he had appropriated wholesale Hell's use of text/sloganeering on both instrument and clothing.

I think it can all be traced back to Richard Hell, even the splatter. He's probably the most ripped off dude, ever. Sadly, the vast majority of people have no idea who they're ripping off when they cop that look. Hell should have gotten way more credit than he has.

 

[Matt O]

In an effort to further derail the topic (sorry OP!), listen to this and tell me this wasn't the band that the Pistols were, um, borrowing from: