Signature sound and PA support

[Erkalump]

So many bassists obsess over gear to get the "the sound" only go gig out and DI into the PA.

It seems to me that all that careful sound crafting goes right out the window and only serves the bassist on stage and that the audience is subjected to the whims of whatever the sound tech decides is "the sound".

Any advice on how to maintain your signature sound when using DI PA support? (Please don't say mic the cab).

 

[richntiff]

My advice? Get over it.

 

[Erkalump]

My advice? Get over it.

Interesting... And yet your bass has as many knobs as a DC10... Tell me more

 

[richntiff]

Sure. I like to hear a tone that I find pleasing coming out of my stage rig. I also really like active basses over passive. And it’s 5 knobs. Hardly excessive. As far as FOH tone, I realize that in 99% of the situations I play that have second party (not the bands pa) sound reinforcement support - I will end up with a FOH tone that bears a resemblance to mine. It may be very very close, it may be a somewhat distant relative. I try to control what I can control. I go out of my way to befriend every sound person I work with. However - when we hit that first downbeat, I’m not about to be concerned if my personal signature midrange bump and grind is cutting through at the proper frequency notch. It’s effectively beyond my control at that point - and I’m not inclined to act like an entitled 6 year old if I don’t hear ‘my signature tone’ coming out of whatever PA I happen to be in that night.

 

[JGbassman]

In smaller clubs it's not so hard to do, as you can mix your stage sound with the fronts to get a pretty good semblance of what you like, as long as it's a good fit in the mix.

On a system where the fronts completely overpower the stage gear, I've found a combination of a direct signal and a mic on your cab works the best. As long as the foh bass sits well in the mix so it can be heard, I'm a pretty happy camper.

I'm in the forming stage of a high end tribute band that will be starting to shop agents/agencies at the start of the year. The stage will be a direct replica of said artist, down to the stage plot. As this will not be a bar band, but bigger venues/main stage casino stages, my answer to getting my signal to foh will be a reddi (direct box) and a mic on an 810 cab to get a flavor of the Ampeg. Combining the two will get me about where I need to be to simulate the artist band.

I know you said no mics, but it is a good way to get the character of the tone to the mains. Using the direct will add the missing lows, and a clean signal to help build a good bass tone. Hope this helps.

 

[Erkalump]

Sure. I like to hear a tone that I find pleasing coming out of my stage rig. I also really like active basses over passive. And it’s 5 knobs. Hardly excessive. As far as FOH tone, I realize that in 99% of the situations I play that have second party (not the bands pa) sound reinforcement support - I will end up with a FOH tone that bears a resemblance to mine. It may be very very close, it may be a somewhat distant relative. I try to control what I can control. I go out of my way to befriend every sound person I work with. However - when we hit that first downbeat, I’m not about to be concerned if my personal signature midrange bump and grind is cutting through at the proper frequency notch. It’s effectively beyond my control at that point - and I’m not inclined to act like an entitled 6 year old if I don’t hear ‘my signature tone’ coming out of whatever PA I happen to be in that night.

Thanks for the good detail. Do you find yourself using the onboard eq in order to affect the FOH sound, or do you only worry about your own stage sound?

 

[Wasnex]

So many bassists obsess over gear to get the "the sound" only go gig out and DI into the PA.

It seems to me that all that careful sound crafting goes right out the window and only serves the bassist on stage and that the audience is subjected to the whims of whatever the sound tech decides is "the sound".

Any advice on how to maintain your signature sound when using DI PA support? (Please don't say mic the cab).

If you want your signature sound why do you reject the best way of achieving it. Mic the cab! Second best option would be to run a speaker level DI with a speaker emulator, but be advised some class-D and bridged amps cannot safely be run this way. Also, the speaker emulation will not be exactly the sound of your speaker, so it is not completely authentic. Course if you use IEMs you would get likely get your signature sound from some sort of preamp.

My personal philosophy is more in line with @richntiff . I run my bass into a decent DI like a Countryman Type-85 or Radial J48 and don't worry about what the audio tech does with it. I use my amp as a personal monitor and adjust it more to hear clearly rather than to get a signature sound. When I hear recordings, guess what, it always sounds like me. If I were relying on my rig to produce distortion and get a signature sound I would ask the audio tech to mic the cab.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for the good detail. Do you find yourself using the onboard eq in order to affect the FOH sound, or do you only worry about your own stage sound?

You should let the audio tech do his or her job. A different EQ is needed to get the bass to sound good out in the house than what you require on stage. The audio tech has the ability to listen to the mains and make adjustments.

 

[pcake]

that's why i used to use my own rig with no PA support at small to medium gigs, and i brought a sound man for my very few large (500+) gigs.

 

[s0c9]

You should let the audio tech do his or her job. A different EQ is needed to get the bass to sound good out in the house than what you require on stage. The audio tech has the ability to listen to the mains and make adjustments.

With my FOH hat on, I have never understood folks who are up on stage and complain about "signature tone" from FOH - as if they have a clue as to how it sounds out front, from "up there".
Now, if they're wireless roaming.. then fine, I get it.
I also fail to see what stage side folks think that FOH does all night? Yeah, I know, there's a percentage out there that gets a basic mix going, then walks away while you play.
Most I know don't fit that profile. We get paid (when we get paid) to make the band(s) sound good.

Being a symbiotic/trust relationship, it helps when the stage side has some idea as to what FOH does.

Now, I may not have as much setup time (DI and/or mic) in a Festival setting with 30 min between bands to dedicate to ensuring you get your signature tone out front, but while I'm out there, I'm doing the best with what I have available.
Sadly, many folks do not know that SR for Festivals is often bid-based and the promoter goes with a fixed price quote, which may or may NOT include gear you may feel helps get your "sig tone".
Much as I'd love to have REDDI's or other high end DI's, the promoter ain't paying for them, so you get my SM57 on your cab and a Whirlwind DI

I know these are generalities, but being on both sides of the stage for many years, I've come across uninformed folks on both sides.
We have to work with each other for the best possible outcome. That's the key.

 

[Downunderwonder]

If the PA is dialed in to the room there is no reason my DI post EQ sound can't be broadcast through it. My cabs are flat enough in response and the only rooms I have PA support in also have huge overhead space on stage obviating any ''stage space'' effect on my nearfield.

Outdoors it's free and clear. Why not mic it and listen to it?

I have a very flat response mic and I don't have extremes of EQ. No need to scoop out my mids or boost my E string into a sub cannon, chur bro.

 

[matty1039]

Honestly, I think this is the future. All tone coming from pedals into a di, then to pa/foh, and then maybe into an amp.

 

[SLO Surfer]

(Please don't say mic the cab).

Mic the cab is the obvious and probably most effective solution.

FOH affects the “signature sound” of every band member, not just bass, so we all need to trust them and/or get over it unless we are going to go wireless and walk out front and mix the band ourselves (which my band’s Sax player often does).

That said, I use a SansAmp DI/preamp with the cab sim button on so I send a signal with the tone shaped how I like, (basically flat with a little low-mid bump) and let sound guys do what they like with it. My stage sound is how I like so I can enjoy it and focus on the performance.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

When I’m working with effects and tone changes, as I have in several cover and a few original bands, I make nice with the sound staff and have found most to be accommodating to use my amp’s DI output or mic the cab. I do explain my patches have been carefully balanced, and don’t meet much resistance. In certain other situations where I don’t have any patch changes I still prefer my DI but I’m less inclined to fight for it. Obviously if it’s a festival situation with multiple bands and quick changes, I’m more sympathetic and accommodating to the sound guy’s desires. Even still, even with provided back line, several have let me use my head as a DI, and if there are side fills and a robust monitor for the drummer, I’m often fine without a stage amp at all.

When I do meet resistant sound staff, at a gig where patch changes are part of our performance, it’s a battle I’m not going to win, so I concede with a smile and try to avoid the venue again.

 

[wmhill]

You should just enjoy your stage sound, because it's not going to happen out front. Occasionally you get a tech that preserves some of it, but not often. Last time I thought I'd ask, they offered to mic my cab..... they stuck a SM57 in front of it. You can imagine how nice sounded. Now I just try to put it out of my mind.

 

[jeff62]

If you can’t (or they won’t) mic the cab the next best solution is the Countryman DI. You can send the same signal that’s going to your cabinet to the board.

I’ve got one in my gig bag exactly for this purpose.

 

[Siggy]

Just remember that what you hear on stage is usually very different from what the audience hears. The cab placement. the room, the number of people in the room all have an impact.

 

[two fingers]

With my FOH hat on, I have never understood folks who are up on stage and complain about "signature tone" from FOH - as if they have a clue as to how it sounds out front, from "up there".
Now, if they're wireless roaming.. then fine, I get it.
I also fail to see what stage side folks think that FOH does all night? Yeah, I know, there's a percentage out there that gets a basic mix going, then walks away while you play.
Most I know don't fit that profile. We get paid (when we get paid) to make the band(s) sound good.

Being a symbiotic/trust relationship, it helps when the stage side has some idea as to what FOH does.

Now, I may not have as much setup time (DI and/or mic) in a Festival setting with 30 min between bands to dedicate to ensuring you get your signature tone out front, but while I'm out there, I'm doing the best with what I have available.
Sadly, many folks do not know that SR for Festivals is often bid-based and the promoter goes with a fixed price quote, which may or may NOT include gear you may feel helps get your "sig tone".
Much as I'd love to have REDDI's or other high end DI's, the promoter ain't paying for them, so you get my SM57 on your cab and a Whirlwind DI

I know these are generalities, but being on both sides of the stage for many years, I've come across uninformed folks on both sides.
We have to work with each other for the best possible outcome. That's the key.

This.

 

[buldog5151bass]

The sound person generally know better than you how to fit the bass in the mix. But nothing beats getting them a beer or coffee and having a respectful discussion.

 

[two fingers]

So many bassists obsess over gear to get the "the sound" only go gig out and DI into the PA.

It seems to me that all that careful sound crafting goes right out the window and only serves the bassist on stage and that the audience is subjected to the whims of whatever the sound tech decides is "the sound".

Any advice on how to maintain your signature sound when using DI PA support? (Please don't say mic the cab).

Here's what you have to ask yourself. (And I too have spent many years on both sides of the mixing board.)

What's more important? Your sound or the band's sound?

Now, many here would argue that "any good sound guy.... a real pro" can get you both. And sometimes that's true.

But sometimes it isn't.

Also, your aversion toward micing your cab displays a tiny bit of ignorance on your part.

Your cab drastically affects what you hear on stage. It is a HUGE part of "your sound".

So, assuming that the tone traveling out of your line out (the XLR on the back of your head or end of your pedalboard) is the same as the sound coming from your cab is ridiculous. It's not.

The sound coming from the line out on my SVT-CL only goes through the preamp. Before I hear it on stage it also goes through the power tubes, a huge hunk of lead, my speaker cable and my cab. All of those things change my tone. What I hear from my cab is nothing like what I would hear wearing headphones at the mixing board.

They are two different sounds.

So, if you want to force "your sound" into a mix (which may or may not be a great idea) there's no better option than micing the cab.

But, as stated earlier, your perspective from on stage is all messed up. You have no idea how rokm physics and tone of other factors affect a band mix.

Try working WITH the sound guy (when he has time).

When I run sound, I am putting MY SIGNATURE on what that band sounds like. MY REPUTATION is on the line. Why on Earth would you think I, or any other sound guy, would go out of ky way to make you sound anything but amazing. And, frankly, I don't give a crap if that includes your signature sound or not. If that sound works for the mix, GREAT. If not, that's what I have knobs, slides and buttons for. I will do my best to make it fit the band and the room. Your ego and the amount of time, money amd effort you spent molding your sound doesn't even cross my mind.

My advice? Set up. Dial in your sound for the stage. When it comes time to line check the bass, ASK THE SOUND GUY if he needs more or less of anything. That tells him you give a crap abiut what he's doing. He'll give a crap about what you're doing.