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Double Bass Simandl Shifting and Rabbath pivoting in jazz technique

#21
Tom, how much do we need the lyrical 2nd finger in jazz playing?
:p

Re: Bille, It seems that teaching 1-3-4 as a basic system over 1-2-4 is nearly dead aside from some schools in Europe. The actual music in Bille and Rabbath's books is much more enjoyable to play than Simandl, IME, regardless of what fingerings you might choose. Kids seem to care alot more about music that's actually musical...
 
#22
scott reed said:
I use Montag instead of Simandl. I find it more musical. I like to start a bass guitar
doubler using Rabbath fingerings in fourth position (seventh fret on a D neck bass)
with the fourth finger pivot and the first finger back pivot from cello fingerings.
Thumb positions start immediately rather than waiting a year or two. I also like
octave division exercises up and down a single string (linear) to teach shifting and
finger replacement. Harmonics are also a good way to feel locations and distances
between positions - I like to introduce the bow with harmonics along with open strings.
Click to expand...

I'll have to check out Montag. I use Vance (Rabbath light) and Rufus Reid (very Simandl-like) to start and then work back to the Simandl fingerings after the student gets confident with the entire range of the bass. The pivots work really nice in the middle of the neck on Bebop heads, for example, and they offer a lot of flexiblity. Personally, because of my background my default setting is Simandl, but it's in transition....
 
#23
The block-y sound of Simandl prepares you to do more IMO, you have to get students to think beyond the Etude they are playing.
I think Simandl is still around because it works, and not the fingerings - the musical structure of etudes really sharpen your playing.
I Simandl with all sorts of fingerings and play excercises an octave up, etc.
I still go back to it all the time - if I am in the mood for something more musicial I play music not an etude!
 
#24
damonsmith said:
The block-y sound of Simandl prepares you to do more IMO, you have to get students to think beyond the Etude they are playing.
Click to expand...
An absolute lightbulb moment for me was seeing Hans Sturm demonstrate how to use adjacent Simandl positions to create different tetrachords. I saw how you can create about any Jazz Mode or Scale using the formula and it gave Simandl a new lease on life for me.
I guess in the final analysis, I'm like the OP in that I use both.
 
#25
Roy touches on something that is a point of great frustration for many young bassists; with the Simandl books alot of kids don't even approach thumb for a year or more. Playing pieces like Dragonetti, or transcribing Mcbride etc... early on gives kids a great sense of accomplishment. I'm with Jason Heath in that I typically reserve Simandl book drudgery for the more serious students.

I'm not saying we should train kids to be soloists per se, but playing comfortably all over the instrument is a primary focus of my pedagogy, and has helped my kids tremendously in their professional careers.

2 cents+.

PS Damon- the Bottesini and Bille etude books are remarkably musical. IME kids care about and try harder on material they find musical and melodic. Another 2 cents...
 
#26
chicagodoubler said:
Roy touches on something that is a point of great frustration for many young bassists; with the Simandl books alot of kids don't even approach thumb for a year or more. Playing pieces like Dragonetti, or transcribing Mcbride etc... early on gives kids a great sense of accomplishment. I'm with Jason Heath in that I typically reserve Simandl book drudgery for the more serious students.

I'm not saying we should train kids to be soloists per se, but playing comfortably all over the instrument is a primary focus of my pedagogy, and has helped my kids tremendously in their professional careers.

2 cents+.

PS Damon- the Bottesini and Bille etude books are remarkably musical. IME kids care about and try harder on material they find musical and melodic. Another 2 cents...
Click to expand...

I don't do the book in exact order, so TP comes up fairly quick. I have never failed to get a student excited to play Simandl - then they can play whatever music they want.
Music is more musical - Bach is more musical, I try to get them working on a piece of actual music ASAP.

The arguments against Simandl are never that it does not work, I am for checking out all the methods but the reason Simandl is still around is that it produces strong results - still.
It does not address everything but it creates an incredibly strong foundation.
I also feel all the extended options make sense against Simandl.
There are a lot of "unmusical" things a serious bassist has to deal with daily - scales, long tones, metronome work and etudes.

As a teachers we need to show them the value of such things and get them excited about them, not how to get around them!
 
#27
OK, so I was the Lab Rat tonight at my Jazz Jam Session gig (great players-Dr. Anthony Belfiglio on piano and Chester Thompson on drums with Todd London on percussion). The verdict? I tend to use Simandl while walking, Rabbath while soloing.
Interesting.....
 
#30
Les Fret said:
Can you give an example to illustrate this? Thanks
Click to expand...

Sure. Let's say that you wish is to play a Bb lydian b7 scale (Bb-C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb). You could organized it in a Lydian tetrachord Bb-C-D-E with 1-4/1-4 fingering on the A string starting in 1/2 position and the use the Dorian/Minor tetrachord on the D string (F-G-Ab-Bb) with 1-4/1-4. In the case of the Lydian there is a whole step between the two 1-4 positions, in the Dorian/Minor it's a 1/2 step. Fingerings are either 1-4, 1-2, or 2-4 in the lower positions in this way. This is best done IMO totally away from any book. Practice 3rds, 4ths, any interval or arpeggio within this.
I'll find the specific clip and post it later today.
 
#31
One thing I've been doing lately is taking any scale/mode in The Evolving Bassist and seeing if I can reduce them to these 3 Rabbath fingerings.
Whole+half 1-2 4 (- represents the pivot)
Half+whole 12-4
Whole 1-4 (Simandl)
A Dorian mode then would be this moveable shape:
1-24/14/12-4
If I'm working with a student on this we always start by bowing the scale and pay particular attention to the thumb placement on the back of the neck.
We'll also use Rufus' fingerings.
 
#32
Roy Vogt said:
Sure. Let's say that you wish is to play a Bb lydian b7 scale (Bb-C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb). You could organized it in a Lydian tetrachord Bb-C-D-E with 1-4/1-4 fingering on the A string starting in 1/2 position and the use the Dorian/Minor tetrachord on the D string (F-G-Ab-Bb) with 1-4/1-4. In the case of the Lydian there is a whole step between the two 1-4 positions, in the Dorian/Minor it's a 1/2 step. Fingerings are either 1-4, 1-2, or 2-4 in the lower positions in this way. This is best done IMO totally away from any book. Practice 3rds, 4ths, any interval or arpeggio within this.
I'll find the specific clip and post it later today.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining.
It is basically a diagonal approach to scales instead of the more usual horizontal or vertical way of playing. The same as explained in the Chuck Sher book.
Now you say this, I remember seeing that clip of Hans Sturm where he explains this and the basics of Rabbath technique.
Thanks for reminding me.
 
#33
Les Fret said:
Thanks for explaining.
It is basically a diagonal approach to scales instead of the more usual horizontal or vertical way of playing. The same as explained in the Chuck Sher book.
Now you say this, I remember seeing that clip of Hans Sturm where he explains this and the basics of Rabbath technique.
Thanks for reminding me.
Click to expand...

+1 The Sher book is a wonderful resource! It's challenging for the student because it makes them think, not imitate. Chuck hit it out of the Park with that one as well as the Mark Johnson soloing book. Good stuff!
 
#36
I also have the Marc Johnson book. Great book. Would be nice if they had put some fingering above the examples. Also Marc is playing lots of slurs (really a lot!) and those are not notated.
I have tried to transcribe some examples more precisely from the cd but it is hard to guess/hear what fingering he is using because of all the hammer ons, pull offs and slides.
I know the examples are just a demonstration of the improvise concept, but it would be nice to see how he actually played it because it is really nice playing.
 
#37
barend said:
I also have the Marc Johnson book. Great book. Would be nice if they had put some fingering above the examples. Also Marc is playing lots of slurs (really a lot!) and those are not notated.
I have tried to transcribe some examples more precisely from the cd but it is hard to guess/hear what fingering he is using because of all the hammer ons, pull offs and slides.
I know the examples are just a demonstration of the improvise concept, but it would be nice to see how he actually played it because it is really nice playing.
Click to expand...
I think that's by design-there are so many ways to play the same idea. You're describing the issue with any transcription-it's how the transcriber heard it and you may hear it differently. By trying to figure out how you'd like to play it you'll learn a lot :)
 
#40
damon,

the jazz books are wonderful, but IME can only be supplements to transcription, real work experience, and tune learning, for jazz pedagogy.

far too many kids come through my door wanting to study jazz but unwilling to pay the price... eventually they're dumbfounded when a college audition asks for even a basic sonata and concerto for entry to their music school.. regardless of choice re: legit vs. jazz, basic proficiency on the bow, regardless of method taught, is still part of the core of skills many colleges look for in a music major.:help:
 

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