Sire V7 - are they really THAT good?

[laklandplayer]

Can anyone give a Lakland/Sire comparison. I have the Daryl Jones Lakland and love it but I also love active and I'm getting GAS for a V7. Low action is a concern due to arthritis. How do they compare?

Thanks much.

Your Skyline has graphite rods in the neck (Sire's don't) and are setup in house after they arrive from Indonesia.
They are put on a Plek machine to give it a precision fret dressing that give you the lowest action possible.
The Sire's arrive "as is" from the factory.
To make a Sire compare to a Lakland, a Plek job will cost $260.00 plus $100.00 shipping to the Plek shop's location and back. A good setup can cost $100.00. With the Sire's I've played ALL need to have the nut lowered.
So, if you want the Sire to be truly comparable you'd need to add another $460 or so to the Sire's base cost.
Your Daryl Jones Lakland has a thinner and faster neck. I own 2 Lakland 5 strings (a 5502 Skyline and a Scheff USA) and have played several Sire basses... Sire's have a thick, chunkier neck profile than I prefer.
Lakland's hardware is far better than what is found on the Sire.
You can order the Sire and send it back if you don't like it but to compare it equally to the Lakland, you have to consider their extensive setup and high, out of the box, quality.

 

[bholder]

(Sire's don't)

I believe I've read that the M7 does, fwiw.

 

[tubestuff]

Your Skyline has graphite rods in the neck (Sire's don't) and are setup in house after they arrive from Indonesia.
They are put on a Plek machine to give it a precision fret dressing that give you the lowest action possible.
The Sire's arrive "as is" from the factory.
To make a Sire compare to a Lakland, a Plek job will cost..."

Thanks Lakland player!
That's great input. I've been tweaking my Noel Redding Jazz for years to adapt it to my aging fingers and got it workable other than the top 8 frets. Tried a DJ at the local store and it blew it away. I am now a Lakeland player newbie. I think I might "buy & try" a Sire just because GAS! And I really like active capability and sound shaping. (My NR Jazz has an Audere preamp)
Really appreciate you taking the time to run down the details. Thanks.

 

[shewhorn]

Going by most TB and external reviews of the Sire basses I'd assume that the high-end MIM Fenders boast better hardware materials, but that's probably about as far as it goes.

I don't know if the Fender Special Edition Deluxe PJ counts as a high end MIM but... I just received one a few days ago and called to return it within an hour. This is the one I ordered:

Fender Special Edition Deluxe PJ Bass

The paint job was MUCH better than I'd expected. Gorgeous. The factory setup was awful, one of the saddles was completely lopsided. It had an inspection card on it so I'm not sure how the heck that passed. Intonation was off by 10 to 18 cents on every string. That doesn't really speak to the quality of the bass though, those things are all fixable. Playability wise, even with a basic setup, there was a lot of fret buzz above the 12th fret. The tuning machines were also lousy. As you'd turn a peg, sometimes you wouldn't get any change in pitch and then it would suddenly jump, overshooting the target so you had to detune and start over. The reason I returned it though... TERRIBLE electronics. To be fair this bass may have hit a bad batch of pots, but that should have been caught in inspection. Anyhow, there were two things wrong with the pots. 1) When both volume pots were all the way down, it would still pass audio. 2) The response of the pots was non-linear. Pretty much all of the gain was in the last 1/8 range of travel so, if you wanted nuance, or the ability to finely balance between pickups... fat chance. There was a ground problem as well.

On the plus side, the passive P pickup had a SUPER hot output. Can't say the same for the "noiseless" (which wasn't noiseless) J pickup.

I was bummed to send it back as that color scheme (sea foam green, white pick guard, maple neck) was *exactly* what I wanted but alas, I couldn't see myself playing it with all the problems it had.

Note that this is just a single bass amongst millions that Fender sells so I have no idea if this is representative of MIM quality. This is only my second Fender (the first was an MIJ Aerodyne which I regret selling as it had a great tone).

After seeing a review of the V7 by chance, I ordered a 4 string with an Ash body/maple neck. Of all the demos I heard, I actually liked the sound of the alder bodies better (they're also $100 bucks less) BUT... I plan on putting TI flat wounds on this bass so I figured the Ash might be a better option there to retain some clarity. It should arrive on Monday so I'll know then.

 

[Plutonium244]

I don't know if the Fender Special Edition Deluxe PJ counts as a high end MIM but... I just received one a few days ago and called to return it within an hour. This is the one I ordered:

Fender Special Edition Deluxe PJ Bass

The paint job was MUCH better than I'd expected. Gorgeous. The factory setup was awful, one of the saddles was completely lopsided. It had an inspection card on it so I'm not sure how the heck that passed. Intonation was off by 10 to 18 cents on every string. That doesn't really speak to the quality of the bass though, those things are all fixable. Playability wise, even with a basic setup, there was a lot of fret buzz above the 12th fret. The tuning machines were also lousy. As you'd turn a peg, sometimes you wouldn't get any change in pitch and then it would suddenly jump, overshooting the target so you had to detune and start over. The reason I returned it though... TERRIBLE electronics. To be fair this bass may have hit a bad batch of pots, but that should have been caught in inspection. Anyhow, there were two things wrong with the pots. 1) When both volume pots were all the way down, it would still pass audio. 2) The response of the pots was non-linear. Pretty much all of the gain was in the last 1/8 range of travel so, if you wanted nuance, or the ability to finely balance between pickups... fat chance. There was a ground problem as well.

On the plus side, the passive P pickup had a SUPER hot output. Can't say the same for the "noiseless" (which wasn't noiseless) J pickup.

I was bummed to send it back as that color scheme (sea foam green, white pick guard, maple neck) was *exactly* what I wanted but alas, I couldn't see myself playing it with all the problems it had.

Note that this is just a single bass amongst millions that Fender sells so I have no idea if this is representative of MIM quality. This is only my second Fender (the first was an MIJ Aerodyne which I regret selling as it had a great tone).

After seeing a review of the V7 by chance, I ordered a 4 string with an Ash body/maple neck. Of all the demos I heard, I actually liked the sound of the alder bodies better (they're also $100 bucks less) BUT... I plan on putting TI flat wounds on this bass so I figured the Ash might be a better option there to retain some clarity. It should arrive on Monday so I'll know then.

I had thought about that very model of Fender PJ. Glad now I did not buy-- the Sire PJ got my attention, so I heald off, waiting for that to be available for purchase...which gave me enough time to realize I do not need another bass. I realize it's too late now, but maybe the Sire P7 (which is a PJ with jazz neck, like the one you tried) might be the answer. In any case, I think odds are good you'll like the V7. Let us know what you think.

 

[jjk2007]

I had just bought a MIM deluxe 5 and got my Sire a few months later (this was 2 years ago now). While the Fender was a solid bass the Sire outperformed it every category for me. The Fender was sold shortly thereafter and the Sire is still going strong to this day.

 

[shewhorn]

I lose interest when "good for the price" is used. Over half of all comments about Sire qualify them as "good for the price". I don't buy it at all. Something is either good or it isn't irrespective of price. The more I read that Sire's are "good for the price", the more I perceive that they are not actually a good instrument but instead justifiable only because of the price point.

I'm afraid the world isn't that black and white. Pretty much everyone has a budget, mentioning quality and price is a valid piece of data, regardless of the price point AND, since we know about the price, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us as humans to evaluate something without that bias. Sire may in fact take a hit because of the price. In controlled, blind tests where subjects were put in to an MRI and their brains were scanned, it was found that the mention of price ***tangibly changed their actual perception of their experience***. What they did was to feed them wine whilst being scanned. The sampled two wines, a cheap one, and an expensive one. When they were told they were drinking the expensive wine they reported better taste, and this was confirmed by the areas of the brain that lit up (or didn't) when drinking the "expensive" wine. Of course, in both cases, they were drinking the ***exact same wine***.

As someone who has worked in the R&D departments of two major pro audio companies, I can tell you I've observed the phenomenon plenty of times. It's called confirmation bias. The only way to eliminate it is a double-blind test where you don't know what instrument you're playing. Actually... this test has been done with Stradivarius violins which is possibly one of the best documented cases of confirmation bias. In a nutshell, when compared against modern violins, pretty much nobody liked the Strads reporting better sound quality, and better playability of modern instruments. I would LOVE to see this exact same kind of test done with vintage Fenders and modern basses. (not because I expect modern basses would win, I honestly have no idea what the results would be but there's a lot of people trying to justify the price they paid for their vintage Fenders).

 

[selowitch]

I'm afraid the world isn't that black and white. Pretty much everyone has a budget, mentioning quality and price is a valid piece of data, regardless of the price point AND, since we know about the price, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us as humans to evaluate something without that bias. Sire may in fact take a hit because of the price. In controlled, blind tests where subjects were put in to an MRI and their brains were scanned, it was found that the mention of price ***tangibly changed their actual perception of their experience***. What they did was to feed them wine whilst being scanned. The sampled two wines, a cheap one, and an expensive one. When they were told they were drinking the expensive wine they reported better taste, and this was confirmed by the areas of the brain that lit up (or didn't) when drinking the "expensive" wine. Of course, in both cases, they were drinking the ***exact same wine***.

As someone who has worked in the R&D departments of two major pro audio companies, I can tell you I've observed the phenomenon plenty of times. It's called confirmation bias. The only way to eliminate it is a double-blind test where you don't know what instrument you're playing. Actually... this test has been done with Stradivarius violins which is possibly one of the best documented cases of confirmation bias. In a nutshell, when compared against modern violins, pretty much nobody liked the Strads reporting better sound quality, and better playability of modern instruments. I would LOVE to see this exact same kind of test done with vintage Fenders and modern basses. (not because I expect modern basses would win, I honestly have no idea what the results would be but there's a lot of people trying to justify the price they paid for their vintage Fenders).

There are quite a few blindfold tests of MIA/MIM Fenders and Squiers on YouTube. I'm not sure if they are scientifically valid, but they are good enough to produce what I consider to be some useful comparison data.

 

[Plutonium244]

I'm afraid the world isn't that black and white. Pretty much everyone has a budget, mentioning quality and price is a valid piece of data, regardless of the price point AND, since we know about the price, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us as humans to evaluate something without that bias. Sire may in fact take a hit because of the price. In controlled, blind tests where subjects were put in to an MRI and their brains were scanned, it was found that the mention of price ***tangibly changed their actual perception of their experience***. What they did was to feed them wine whilst being scanned. The sampled two wines, a cheap one, and an expensive one. When they were told they were drinking the expensive wine they reported better taste, and this was confirmed by the areas of the brain that lit up (or didn't) when drinking the "expensive" wine. Of course, in both cases, they were drinking the ***exact same wine***.

As someone who has worked in the R&D departments of two major pro audio companies, I can tell you I've observed the phenomenon plenty of times. It's called confirmation bias. The only way to eliminate it is a double-blind test where you don't know what instrument you're playing. Actually... this test has been done with Stradivarius violins which is possibly one of the best documented cases of confirmation bias. In a nutshell, when compared against modern violins, pretty much nobody liked the Strads reporting better sound quality, and better playability of modern instruments. I would LOVE to see this exact same kind of test done with vintage Fenders and modern basses. (not because I expect modern basses would win, I honestly have no idea what the results would be but there's a lot of people trying to justify the price they paid for their vintage Fenders).

Oh, you and your science stuff. Not only do we know (as verified by a mass opinion poll and intelligence test administered nationwide late last fall) that science is dumb, but that things that cost more ARE intrinsically better? The best, even? C'mon now.

 

[shewhorn]

I had thought about that very model of Fender PJ. Glad now I did not buy--

I just want to reiterate, I am one person, with one experience. My experience with that bass may not be indicative of the overall quality of the bass. I'd not really read about problems with the electronics so that might be unique to my experience. Sometimes things slip past QA. I have read similar comments about the tuning machines so my experience doesn't seem unique there.

I realize it's too late now, but maybe the Sire P7 (which is a PJ with jazz neck, like the one you tried) might be the answer. In any case, I think odds are good you'll like the V7. Let us know what you think.

That bass was more about the sea foam green, white pick guard, and maple neck. I was hoping it would sound Fender-ish but it didn't, so... my lust for such an animal still exists. I'll probably gift one to myself from the Fender mod shop when I hit some kind of personal milestone in life but for now, I'm hoping the sire fits my current needs. I don't think I have a real preference for P over J bodies, or necks for that matter. I used to like really thin necks. My current basses are an Ibanez SR700 (4 string) and SR1205e (5 string)... SUPER thin necks... bubinga wood I think. They're GORGEOUS basses both in terms of playability, sound quality, and finish. Anyhow... I still love how they play, but I no longer seem to care about neck shape (and I find this amusing... I'm wondering when exactly that shift happened because those are the only two basses I've played for the past few years).

 

[BigBigGuy44]

I'm afraid the world isn't that black and white. Pretty much everyone has a budget, mentioning quality and price is a valid piece of data, regardless of the price point AND, since we know about the price, it's IMPOSSIBLE for us as humans to evaluate something without that bias. Sire may in fact take a hit because of the price. In controlled, blind tests where subjects were put in to an MRI and their brains were scanned, it was found that the mention of price ***tangibly changed their actual perception of their experience***. What they did was to feed them wine whilst being scanned. The sampled two wines, a cheap one, and an expensive one. When they were told they were drinking the expensive wine they reported better taste, and this was confirmed by the areas of the brain that lit up (or didn't) when drinking the "expensive" wine. Of course, in both cases, they were drinking the ***exact same wine***.

As someone who has worked in the R&D departments of two major pro audio companies, I can tell you I've observed the phenomenon plenty of times. It's called confirmation bias. The only way to eliminate it is a double-blind test where you don't know what instrument you're playing. Actually... this test has been done with Stradivarius violins which is possibly one of the best documented cases of confirmation bias. In a nutshell, when compared against modern violins, pretty much nobody liked the Strads reporting better sound quality, and better playability of modern instruments. I would LOVE to see this exact same kind of test done with vintage Fenders and modern basses. (not because I expect modern basses would win, I honestly have no idea what the results would be but there's a lot of people trying to justify the price they paid for their vintage Fenders).

I heard about both of those studies on NPR. Very interesting.

Again, price has no bearing as to whether a product is good or not. Black and white. It is either good or it isn't. When the words "good for the price" are mumbled, my mind quickly translates that to "here is an inferior product we are going to try to up-sell to you hoping you'll bite on it simply because of the price point".

 

[shewhorn]

There are quite a few blindfold tests of MIA/MIM Fenders and Squiers on YouTube. I'm not sure if they are scientifically valid, but they are good enough to produce what I consider to be some useful comparison data.

Generally such tests are not scientifically valid due to something called expectation bias which is where the person running the test influences the results. Also, I've rarely ever seen a YouTube test that goes through the trouble of negating variables that could impact results, or setting up a control for the experiment. That doesn't mean the data can't be useful to someone trying to make a decision so long as the data guides some to a decision that they're ultimately happy with, but... they probably can't be used to quantify characteristics of an instrument. I use such reviews and comparisons to help me make decisions myself. I rarely pay attention to sound though as there's so many variables there.

One claim I often see is that "aged" wood sounds better than new wood. The claim is that the wood resonates differently. I'd find this more believable IF guitar pickups reacted to sound pressure level. That would make the material a bigger player in the difference in sound but guitar pickups do not respond to sound pressure level at all. They work but inducing a current when a vibrating metal string placed over a magnet with a coil of wire around it changes the magnetic flux.

If you wanted to test such differences the very first thing you'd need to do would be to get a vintage Fender, 3D scan it, and then have an *exact* CNCed replica made of the body, with the same wood from the same forrest/species/sub-species of tree the the original came from. Then you'd have to do blind tests. It would be a bit of a pain because you'd have to swap out bodies which means moving everything from one body to another.

A much more practical test would be Yamaha... Yamaha claims to have a process that "ages" wood. I'd like to hear say... two Billy Sheehan signature basses, one with an aged body, and one not aged to see if in a blind test, one could tell the difference. That would be pretty fascinating, although it still wouldn't determine if old sounds better than new.

Ultimately when you look at things like pickup placement, pickup construction, how the electronics were manufactured, the total mass of the body, etc... those are all things that will have a much greater sonic impact (I suspect) than the age of the wood. Finally, the biggest difference in sound quality comes from the player. I've recently started practicing Jamerson's single finger technique and it's amazing how different it makes my bass sound.

One final point there... what is "better". I've always found it fascinating that people universally seem to think that older things sound better. Meh... I wish modern recording equipment was around when the Beatles were still making records. I do like vintage-ish sounds as a timbral color, but I don't find such things to be universally "better". Much of this is solidly in the territory of subjectivity though.

 

[Plutonium244]

I heard about both of those studies on NPR. Very interesting.

Again, price has no bearing as to whether a product is good or not. Black and white. It is either good or it isn't. When the words "good for the price" are mumbled, my mind quickly translates that to "here is an inferior product we are going to try to up-sell to you hoping you'll bite on it simply because of the price point".

Um, no.

"Good" is by definition a subjective thing-- so in no way is it either "good, or not" in any absolute sense

Is a Nissan a good car?

Because a Mercedes kicks its ass.

But a Nissan kicks a Kia's ass.

If the Nissan is priced like a Mercedes, it is not good. If it is priced like a Kia it is very good.

IMO Sire is a Nissan priced like a Kia. And that's GOOD for the price... but still not a Benz.

If you want to know if it meets my standard for "good" (which is completely subjective anyway) then sure... it meets my standards for a "good" bass, period. What your standards are, I have no idea. There are plenty of people here who have referred to them not only as "good for the money" but just "good"... but you are conveniently ignoring those.

Perhaps it's best if you don't try understand the relative nature of everything under the sun, or try a Sire. You've clearly been able to come to some near-clairvoyant conclusions about the basses without ever trying one. Anyone that tries them, and does not like them, more power to you-- you are exercizing your first-hand personal judgment. Anyone that feels compelled to denigrate them--with no personal experience-- based solely on the fact that some people also characterize them as a GOOD VALUE-- is beyond absurd IMO. Ironic, that being a good value is a disqualifier for you. I do have a $60,000 bass I'll sell you though. It's automatically GOOD because it is not burdened by the weight of also being a good value for the money.

 

[selowitch]

The Sire basses are a very good value. You get a lot for not much money. That's why they are so popular.

 

[Plutonium244]

The Sire basses are a very good value. You get a lot for not much money. That's why they are so popular.

Kiss of death! They must suck, then. Yrs truly, BIGEJ2

 

[BigBigGuy44]

Kiss of death! They must suck, then. Yrs truly, BIGEJ2

Um, no.

"Good" is by definition a subjective thing-- so in no way is it either "good, or not" in any absolute sense

Is a Nissan a good car?

Because a Mercedes kicks its ass.

But a Nissan kicks a Kia's ass.

If the Nissan is priced like a Mercedes, it is not good. If it is priced like a Kia it is very good.

IMO Sire is a Nissan priced like a Kia. And that's GOOD for the price... but still not a Benz.

If you want to know if it meets my standard for "good" (which is completely subjective anyway) then sure... it meets my standards for a "good" bass, period. What your standards are, I have no idea. There are plenty of people here who have referred to them not only as "good for the money" but just "good"... but you are conveniently ignoring those.

Perhaps it's best if you don't try understand the relative nature of everything under the sun, or try a Sire. You've clearly been able to come to some near-clairvoyant conclusions about the basses without ever trying one. Anyone that tries them, and does not like them, more power to you-- you are exercizing your first-hand personal judgment. Anyone that feels compelled to denigrate them--with no personal experience-- based solely on the fact that some people also characterize them as a GOOD VALUE-- is beyond absurd IMO. Ironic, that being a good value is a disqualifier for you. I do have a $60,000 bass I'll sell you though. It's automatically GOOD because it is not burdened by the weight of also being a good value for the money.

Would you buy a loaf of moldy bread for $1.00? Now, what if that load was regularly priced at $5.00? Maybe for a dollar people would buy it because it is "good for the money". Same goes with dented can sales.

Cars are a great analogy. There are good models in all price points made by all manufacturers. The Mercedes SLA got a pretty bad from Consumer Reports. Mercedes E Class did much better but still below cars that cost much less.

Think of Fender as well. How many times have you heard "try a bunch until you get a good one" on this site? That goes for all of their models and all price points.

 

[fenjazz]

To make a Sire compare to a Lakland, a Plek job will cost $260.00 plus $100.00 shipping to the Plek shop's location and back. A good setup can cost $100.00. With the Sire's I've played ALL need to have the nut lowered.

I've owned 3 Sires and none needed anything remotely like a Plek job to achieve action as low as the Laklands I've owned (USA 44-14 and a Skyline Pleked DJ4). Obviously the 44-14 has fretwork that on a different level from the DJ and the Sires, but the others were very good. Maybe I just got lucky, but I had no issues slamming the action incredibly low on the Sires.

 

[tubestuff]

I've owned 3 Sires and none needed anything remotely like a Plek job to achieve action as low as the Laklands I've owned (USA 44-14 and a Skyline Pleked DJ4). Obviously the 44-14 has fretwork that on a different level from the DJ and the Sires, but the others were very good. Maybe I just got lucky, but I had no issues slamming the action incredibly low on the Sires.

Thanks fenjazz,
That's what I'm hoping for, thanks.
How different are the USA Laklands vs. Indonesians in terms of fretwork?

 

[ArodBass]

I'd say go 4 it! You will no be disappointed...

I bought my 1st Sire V7 5 string in 2015... I was a little hesitant at first but hey, If i didn't like it I knew I would sell it fast because of the price... I've had 5 string Fender's in the past that I didn't like at all , to me the best Fender is a 4 string. Boy was I shocked! When I got the bass, I took it to my bass repair guy to have it set up , etc. He was very impressed with the quality and sound of the instrument for the price. I played the bass only for 1 month , and I really tried to not like it, but it was the opposite , i really liked it and ended up keeping it. As a matter of fact , I bought another Sire last week a 4 string this time, because I needed one to teach bass.

I proudly own 2 Sadowsky's , and sadowsky has been my main instruments for the past 2 decades.. The Sire's are no Sadowsky but they're really great basses!

Go get a sire with confidence!!

 

[dave_bass5]

Ive had my V7 5 sting since they were available from Thomanns. Everything was set up well and no issues as far as low action goes. I have the same action on all my basses. I really cant fault it, and to my ears it sounds much nicer as a Jazz bass than my old Lakland DJ5. The neck is a little chunky but comfortable. I dont really need all the EQ options, but they are nice to have.
My only issue is the weight. Its heavy, and a lot heavier than any other bass ive owned or played. Not a huge deal breaker, but its always nice to take it off after playing it for a while. I dont use it much, but its a bass ill never sell, due to how cheap it is and, well, everyone needs a 5 string at some point