Double Bass sitting while playing german bow?

[Machina]

I understand the problems that go along with being a german bow player and now I sit to get around them. While I think that there certainly is a method to standing and playing (Karr's,) I follow Simandl and standing was just not easy. This is really true once I started getting into much harder material. Time was also an issue. I love Gary Karr, but he is not playing in an ochestra for a four hour opera...thus he can stand with ease.

Playing sitting down freed up both hands and now I am able to work passages easier. You should be able to use your entire arm no matter what position you play in and overtime I think you'll find out that certain portions of the arms are better at certain actions and vital to performance. I prefer the folding chair that lemur sells since it is adjustable compared to a bar stool. When I play the bass is not like a cello position and play the E string with ease, try "kicking out your knee" so that the leg is not like a 90 degree angle, but more relaxed and lower to the ground.

About using the wrist alone: This may work for you current material, but just remember that it will not always. Eventually, depending on how advanced the material you study is, you will have to use the entire arm and know which sections need to be used for certain technique.

 

[kraid]

anyone here sit and play a German bow? my teacher plays french. i have been taking inspiration from Gary Karr ( and a bit from Alan Karr re. January give up smoking) but he stands and uses the hole arm which is impossible sitting. i use more of a wrist action. my teacher says it's fine but does anyone have any thoughts about if i am going to run into problems later on? any players you could name that i could try and find photos of who sit and play German bow? i would appreciate the tip.

No offence, but if you're only using your wrist you probably have problems right now with you bow arm, no matter what your teacher says is acceptable for the time being. There's no way you can draw the bow from the frog to the tip using only your wrist so I'm guessing you don't explore many parts of the bow when you're playing.

However, I must admit I'm confused by this entire post so maybe I'm reading something wrong. Why can you not use your entire arm sitting down?

 

[Dennis Frati]

No offence, but if you're only using your wrist you probably have problems right now with you bow arm, no matter what your teacher says is acceptable for the time being. There's no way you can draw the bow from the frog to the tip using only your wrist so I'm guessing you don't explore many parts of the bow when you're playing.

However, I must admit I'm confused by this entire post so maybe I'm reading something wrong. Why can you not use your entire arm sitting down?

I have to agree. I don't inderstand how you couldn't use your whole arm while sitting. How are you postioning the bass when seated? Is the rib on the E side against you? If you're postioned in back of the instrument (like playing a cello) the entire fingerboard, and any string crossings needed, are very accessible without having to move either yourself, or the bass, unlike standing.

Dennis

 

[Snakewood]

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh. This can be avoided by not tilting the bass towards you when you play on the e-string, like a cello. Personally I think that's even more difficult unless you have some sort of large stool where you're hovering over the instrument. When I play german using a cello like position, I find it difficult to reach thumb position.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh.

That's absolutely what he's talking about. I hate that.

 

[Snakewood]

Ya it is quite a pain. It's one of the few reasons why I use a French Bow.

 

[kpo]

I believe he was referring to drawing a full bow stroke with your arm on the e-string without hitting your right thigh. This can be avoided by not tilting the bass towards you when you play on the e-string, like a cello. Personally I think that's even more difficult unless you have some sort of large stool where you're hovering over the instrument. When I play german using a cello like position, I find it difficult to reach thumb position.

There should be no need to change your seated position to accomodate either bow on the E string.
As Paul Ellison was recently heard saying (being a player and teacher of both bows), [paraphrase:] 'playing the bass is complicated but not difficult. If you find something to be very difficult, it's (likely) because you're making it so. Just get out of the way."

 

[Snakewood]

There should be no need to change your seated position to accomodate either bow on the E string.
As Paul Ellison was recently heard saying (being a player and teacher of both bows), [paraphrase:] 'playing the bass is complicated but not difficult. If you find something to be very difficult, it's (likely) because you're making it so. Just get out of the way."

Okay, that's nice.
I think it might very well have something to do with the individuals body size as well, and especially the length of their arms. I'm sure Mr. Ellison would be titled "god" by now if he published a series of steps in order to play german while sitting without halving to change your body/bass position. Maybe he has? Honest question.

 

[JayR]

Going back to the original theme of this post, I've found a great difference in comfort depending on the size of the bass. I'm a big tall skinny guy (6'4", 170) and this has always caused me difficulty in playing comfortably. For a while, I was actually playing on a slightly-less-than 3/4 bass (I picked it up because it was only 2k, plywood-free, and sounded really damn good for the price and didnt break the bank). I was having really awful tendonitis problems during this time, and I could never play comfortably for any lenght of time with this bass standing because, even after two custom made endpins, it was never tall enough and I would always lose the bass when doing quick shifts into thumb. I tried to remedy this by playing sitting, but the bass was so damn thin I couldn't reach the E string without CONSIDERABLE acrobatics and I ended up with nasty back pain from doing this. After a performance of beethoven's 6th on this thing one night, I felt like someone had beat me senseless with a baseball bat. Over the summer, I drove down to Lemur and got a new bass, really nice german-made bass that's 3/4 upper bout and 7/8 lower bout, really thick body, not 5-string pollman huge but close. Ever since I started playing on this bass, my tendonitis has almost completely gone away and I can play for much longer periods, sitting or standing, without discomfort. Sitting I have no problem with the E-string , as the bass clears my leg by several inches. Just as a conclusion, I think instrument/person size has a pretty large impact on whether playing german sitting is feasable. Thoughts?

 

[Snakewood]

Yes I would agree. But then again Ludwig Streicher was apparently less than 5'4" and he looked extremely comfortable when playing seated.

 

[PJEBassist]

I've read most of these and I think I fall into a little different category. I started standing with French and left it to sit with a german.

I made the move to the stool this past spring. I saw the definate advantages of making it fine through my 2 hour youth symphony rehearsals. I was teacherless at the time but a friend wanted me to try it since he'd been using the stool so long. I felt pain in my shoulder from long constant play on the g string and began to wonder what to do. About this time I went to the ASoDB and Dr. Morton made me a believer in the German bow. Don't think that he's getting people there to convert them over to a different side, he just noticed I respond better with the German and it feels much more natural to me.

As to stools all I can say is: "FIT THE STOOL TO YOU. FIT THE BASS TO YOU." It blows my mind seeing a bass player with this 30 inch stool that's only about 5'10. Your legs should easily touch the ground at about a 55 degree angle. Like being able to comfortable sit with both feet on the floor. Now the height of the bass should be proportional to where you hand will be while bowing. For French players your finger tips should go about 2-3 past the bridge when your arm is fully extended. German players should should keep their wrists stright and fingers out to their left and their finger should fall about an 1/2 inch from the bridge in the bowing area. Then from here the bass should be rested in that cello position talked about earlier. If anything I try and get the neck further away from my head because it feels unnatural otherwise. Your natural instincts will be to keep the neck close to your head, but I think it helps to have it further away. I still play jazz while standing.

After making all these changes my bass playing has just gone through the roof. I think these changes may help alot of bass players. I still practice standing up sometimes because I believe it to be a very important skill that we have that versatility whereas all cellists sit.

Much Love,
-Jake