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Double Bass Small Versatile PA Advice

Jason Sypher

Jason Sypher

Jan 3, 2001
3,836
5,202
Brooklyn, NY
jasonsypher.com
#1
I’m putting together a small PA for gigs in Japan. My needs are mostly for acoustic ensembles, lots of mic inputs, no amps. The venues will generally be very small affairs, coffeehouse type situations, often gigs I would play acoustic but Japan likes PAs (a long story). I’m leaning towards a very simple system that’s lightweight and versatile. Any advice is welcome. Here are my initial thoughts:

$1685.00 with stands and cables (no sub)

Allen and Heath ZED60-14FX
2 QSC CP8
with an option of adding a small 10” sub
possibly a QSC KS112
 
Last edited:
#2
That's a nice little setup that should work well. I haven't used that A&H mixer, but have a lot of experience with the Presonus AR16c mixer. About the same price or cheaper, and includes 4 more XLR inputs and bluetooth so you can stream break music through your phone. I own one, and run sound on another one for the Jazz Society. Solid, reliable board.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...-ar16c-mixer-and-audio-interface-with-effects
 
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#3
I have a similar setup that I use regularly for jazz gigs. QSC K10’s, which are similar. I actually use a Behringer Flow8 which is a pretty cool mix between a digital board(with phone/tablet connectivity) and a nice analog-style surface. The can fit in my bass bag. Pretty cool. This probably doesn’t have the amount of inputs you are looking for, however, I thought I’d mention it. Have fun finding a set up that works for you!
 
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#4
Consider buying Japanese gear. IME Yamaha makes some top notch PA gear.

I am sure the little mixer you are considering is fine, but it's also very limited if you don't pair it with additional gear such as 31-band graphic system EQs for the mixes. IMHO consider going digital. A digital mixer tends to give you way more processing power (EQ, dynamics, effects) and allows you to do things like save and recall settings or a snapshot of the entire board. If you play in the same venue regularly, you can save a snap shot to recall for the next gig. This won't totally eliminate the need to dial in the system, but it should make sound check go faster as long as you are using the same basic setup and layout.

For current Yamaha digital, consider https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/p/pr...-channel-ultra-compact-digital-mixing-console

If that is too expensive, see if you can find a clean used 01V96i - Overview - Yamaha USA

Yamaha makes multiple lines of active cabs. https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/c/pro-audio/pa-speakers

There may be other Yamaha options in Japan
 
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#5
In our area Behringer sound equipment is probably the most accessible and inexpensive. About 10 years ago I setup a Behringer system with a 16 channel mixer and two 12" / 550w powered speakers that we used until our band decided to stop doing our own sound. With accessories (stands, cables, etc.) and primarily dynamic mics (mostly Audix) it came in just under $2K US at that time. The point being, I can't imagine it would be less expensive -- new -- in today's economy.

This was a fairly traditional, totally analog system. Today's digital systems would provide many more features, but I don't know anything about pricing.

I'll add this... In our band's experience using this system was a major distraction and a time, money and energy sink hole. We used it a few times -- for weddings and such -- paying a tech to run it while we performed. We used it for street fairs a few times. The schlepping and setup were exhausting. At this point we expect the venues to provide sound, and if they don't we either go completely acoustic for instruments -- with at most perhaps a vocal mic or two and a small speaker for our singers -- or we don't play. It's just not worth the total cost. Our band works on our music now, not on sound systems. We eventually donated our sound system to a venue that had lost everything in a fire.
 
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#6
Wasnex said:
Consider buying Japanese gear. IME Yamaha makes some top notch PA gear.

I am sure the little mixer you are considering is fine, but it's also very limited if you don't pair it with additional gear such as 31-band graphic system EQs for the mixes. IMHO consider going digital. A digital mixer tends to give you way more processing power (EQ, dynamics, effects) and allows you to do things like save and recall settings or a snapshot of the entire board. If you play in the same venue regularly, you can save a snap shot to recall for the next gig. This won't totally eliminate the need to dial in the system, but it should make sound check go faster as long as you are using the same basic setup and layout.

For current Yamaha digital, consider https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/p/pr...-channel-ultra-compact-digital-mixing-console

If that is too expensive, see if you can find a clean used 01V96i - Overview - Yamaha USA

Yamaha makes multiple lines of active cabs. https://shop.usa.yamaha.com/en/c/pro-audio/pa-speakers

There may be other Yamaha options in Japan
Click to expand...
Oh god no, nothing like this! You gotta think that basically we are like a chamber ensemble, no drums, all acoustic, maybe four or five players at the most: vocal, fiddle, harp or banjo or flute, guitar or bouzouki and bass, at the most. Even with Rhiannon our FOH engineer (who also does our monitors) shows me all the eq's which are almost flat. He says "If the musicians are good and the instruments are decent I basically let them mix themselves, all I do is turn it on!" I know he does more than that of course but I would fall squarely in this camp. If someone says to me they can't hear me in a certain section of a song I generally change the way I'm plucking a string. I have a joke with our FOH and he lets me make a playing adjustment before he raises the level of a monitor on stage. 9/10 times he doesn't have to change a thing. We generally self-mix ourselves, perhaps a tiny eq here or there, some have Preamps they can tweak a little. I just go straight into a board with my mic. Plus these are tiny places with very little need for even a medium volume from the monitors. I bet we could probably do the one mic thing but I don't want to go that far. The Yamaha gear is also a great choice and everywhere in Japan (where I live). I like it just fine but I think I've read a few reviews that say the Allen and Heath sounds a bit better. Apples and oranges for sure at this level. Also I think the simplicity of the analog set up will keep us from getting overly involved in our PA.
 
#7
Don Hergert said:
In our area Behringer sound equipment is probably the most accessible and inexpensive. About 10 years ago I setup a Behringer system with a 16 channel mixer and two 12" / 550w powered speakers that we used until our band decided to stop doing our own sound. With accessories (stands, cables, etc.) and primarily dynamic mics (mostly Audix) it came in just under $2K US at that time. The point being, I can't imagine it would be less expensive -- new -- in today's economy.

This was a fairly traditional, totally analog system. Today's digital systems would provide many more features, but I don't know anything about pricing.

I'll add this... In our band's experience using this system was a major distraction and a time, money and energy sink hole. We used it a few times -- for weddings and such -- paying a tech to run it while we performed. We used it for street fairs a few times. The schlepping and setup were exhausting. At this point we expect the venues to provide sound, and if they don't we either go completely acoustic for instruments -- with at most perhaps a vocal mic or two and a small speaker for our singers -- or we don't play. It's just not worth the total cost. Our band works on our music now, not on sound systems. We eventually donated our sound system to a venue that had lost everything in a fire.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't see that happening with us. I'd be careful to keep the system to a minimum. The QSC stuff is small and lightweight and our needs are so basic. No effects save a little reverb. Mics straight into the board.
 
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#8
Jason Sypher said:
I’m putting together a small PA for gigs in Japan. My needs are mostly for acoustic ensembles, lots of mic inputs, no amps. The venues will generally be very small affairs, coffeehouse type situations, often gigs I would play acoustic but Japan likes PAs (a long story). I’m leaning towards a very simple system that’s lightweight and versatile. Any advice is welcome. Here are my initial thoughts:

$1685.00 with stands and cables (no sub)

Allen and Heath ZED60-14FX
2 QSC CP8
with an option of adding a small 10” sub
possibly a QSC KS112
Click to expand...
You used the words "small" and "acoustic" twice, so I'll recommend an acoustic-array system a la the Bose L1 or its less-expensive competitors, along with a small mixer. Very simple, small footprint, no monitors required, and you don't need to put speakers on stands. If you're going to run bass through one of these, get whatever is the better subwoofer option. Another (more unwieldy) option is a pair of active speakers with a small mixer... but then you need speaker stands.

I have a lot of experience with "stick" speakers and an 8-channel analog board, and I've never felt that one of them wasn't enough for even a medium-sized room. They don't blast the front row out, and they're heard clearly at the back of the room. Moreover, they take about 15 minutes to shlep into the venue and set up.
 
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#9
Jason Sypher said:
Oh god no, nothing like this! You gotta think that basically we are like a chamber ensemble, no drums, all acoustic, maybe four or five players at the most: vocal, fiddle, harp or banjo or flute, guitar or bouzouki and bass, at the most. Even with Rhiannon our FOH engineer (who also does our monitors) shows me all the eq's which are almost flat. He says "If the musicians are good and the instruments are decent I basically let them mix themselves, all I do is turn it on!" I know he does more than that of course but I would fall squarely in this camp. If someone says to me they can't hear me in a certain section of a song I generally change the way I'm plucking a string. I have a joke with our FOH and he lets me make a playing adjustment before he raises the level of a monitor on stage. 9/10 times he doesn't have to change a thing. We generally self-mix ourselves, perhaps a tiny eq here or there, some have Preamps they can tweak a little. I just go straight into a board with my mic. Plus these are tiny places with very little need for even a medium volume from the monitors. I bet we could probably do the one mic thing but I don't want to go that far. The Yamaha gear is also a great choice and everywhere in Japan (where I live). I like it just fine but I think I've read a few reviews that say the Allen and Heath sounds a bit better. Apples and oranges for sure at this level. Also I think the simplicity of the analog set up will keep us from getting overly involved in our PA.
Click to expand...

Since you seem to use a regular audio tech, why not involve him in the process?

I think you may misunderstand my intent. Just because digital has more processing power does not mean you have to use everything at your disposal all the time. My logic: It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it an not have it.

My forte was actually mixing acoustic ensembles. I did more concert band and big band than cover band.
 
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#10
Just to say I really appreciate where you are aiming. I saw Becky Buller solo last weekend in a quite small, acoustically wonderful room. I would've preferred if she played her instruments unamped, with only some mic - if even that - for her vocals.
 
#11
Wasnex said:
Since you seem to use a regular audio tech, why not involve him in the process?

I think you may misunderstand my intent. Just because digital has more processing power does not mean you have to use everything at your disposal all the time. My logic: It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it an not have it.

My forte was actually mixing acoustic ensembles. I did more concert band and big band than cover band.
Click to expand...
Ha! What I don't have is that kind of money! I play four strings on a wooden box for a living. I believe in simplicity!
 
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#17
Jason Sypher said:
Yeah, I don't see that happening with us. I'd be careful to keep the system to a minimum. The QSC stuff is small and lightweight and our needs are so basic. No effects save a little reverb. Mics straight into the board.
Click to expand...
I have to say though, however you decide to amplify your total sound, I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear you guys play!!!
 
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