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Smallest 2x12 Cabinet

I think both Mike and Duke's cabs use their own proprietary 12s that are both significantly more efficient than a 3012lf. My experience is Duke's cabs are heads above almost everything out there. If you really want a 2x12 I think that would be the way to go. They are about as small and light as they can be and still have that huge bottom. If you are open to something different, the MAS 112 is louder and deeper than any 2x12 I've heard, and my favorite bass sound. It has a relatively small foot print, really easy to move and is light. That MVW technology is incredible, unless you've experienced it.
 
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I think both Mike and Duke's cabs use their own proprietary 12s that are both significantly more efficient than a 3012lf.

I use a custom 4-ohm Kappalite variant in my 4-ohm Thunderchild cab, but my 8-ohm 112s and my 4-ohm 212 both use the stock Kappalite 3012LF. My custom Kappalite is more efficient, while the stock Kappalite goes deeper in a small box. Of course you knew that, but I just wanted to mention the tradeoff for others who may not be as familiar with them.

If you are open to something different, the MAS 112 is louder and deeper than any 2x12 I've heard, and my favorite bass sound. It has a relatively small foot print, really easy to move and is light. That MVW technology is incredible, unless you've experienced it.

I totally believe you. My brief time with an early version if his 112 was both educational and disturbing, as it equaled or exceeded what my 212 could do in most if not all areas. Even though it doesn't obviously fall under the topic of this thread, Mike's 112 is easily cab enough to belong here. And since you're only paying for one woofer instead of two for what I believe is at worst roughly equivalent performance, imo it's extremely high bang + quality for the buck.
 
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To put that another way the excursion limitation of the suspension system comes in BEFORE the motor has exceeded its linear excursion. So it ABSOLUTELY has a bearing on calculations of volume displacement.

Have you seen the Klippel results? It's not only the measuring of the total harmonic distortion, there's more going on.
I would like to see the actual Klippel results of both the 3012LF and the 3015LF, then you have some real facts about what causes the lower xmax of the 3012LF.
If I look at the specs of both drivers I see that Re isn't the same, this already points to a difference in the "motor"
 
Well sir, are you going to bring your opinion to......Baer?

Well, as far as the original post, I'll have to sit this out, as we don't make a small 212 cab. As far as the specs of this or that, again I try to stay out of it, as I don't really get hung up on specs too much. Some of my favorite cabs of all time probably didn't have specs that were overly impressive, yet I thought they sounded great. I really try to stress that people should buy a cab because they love the character of the sound and not the driver spec sheet.
 
You know I'm pretty sure I'd love your cabs regardless of specs. I read specs but I'm not a freak on it or really a tech at all. I read people's opinions that I respect and listen to their descriptions of what they hear and I've had pretty good luck with what I've bought so far. I had never heard a Bergantino in person before I bought one. I found an older 112 used and picked it up to try. After hearing it In Person I agreed with most of what I had read and proceeded to buy more of Bills cabs over the last ten years. I have been very happy with those 5 purchases so far. The only reason I sold one was because of the weight not the sound. I'm also relatively certain I would like any of Dukes, Mikes, Alex's or your cabs for the same reasons and by the same deductive reasoning. I also had never heard a Genz Benz amp before I bought several years ago and I'm still using two happily. I think too many people get hung up on the minutiae and fail to think about the big picture. Not seeing the forest for the trees comes to mind. I really miss Kjungs observations as he had a way of cutting to the chase in both tone descriptions as well as real world performance use. I am a working professional so I listen closely to what professionals say as I trust their opinions more than most.
 
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If you want a very small 212 (or 112) you could build one yourself.
I already posted this in another thread, it's a comparison between the 3012LF in a Fearful design and a 12" Oberton driver in a cab only half the size of the fearful.

Below the comparison between the Fearful 12/6 with the 3012LF (red curve) and the Oberton 12N601 (black curve).
The 3012LF needs 60-65liters, tuning is 45hz (Fearful design). The Oberton only needs 30liters! that's slightly more then 1cu ft (tuning is 50hz).
The 3012LF is 2dB more efficient but needs twice the volume to achieve that. The Oberton can handle 600watts, and according to simulations it can handle it mechanically too (range above 44hz), amp power is relative cheap these days so that should not be a problem.
So if you want the smallest possible cab with a 12" driver that can go practically as deep and as loud as a fearful 12/6 you can achieve that with the Oberton 12NB601.

3012LF vs 12NB601.png
 
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WOW this is fun, as an observer. I sure didn't expect to get this when I read the thread title, what round is it now? Gentlemen to your corners and come out swinging at the bell.
Not what I expected, either, but it is a valid discussion. I am one of those players who would know enough to care about Vd and have an inkling that it can be calculated in different ways, but am not familiar with the different ways in which it can be calculated. If someone claims a response down to X Hz, I know enough to ask what the -3dB point is, but I wouldn't normally think to look into how Vd was calculated. I'd have to do a good deal of re-reading and a bit of study to follow all the details of this discussion, but that one should use "the same yardstick" when comparing quantifiable aspects of a product to another, similar product makes sense to me. If you're not going to do that, you should be open about it and give a good reason why not.

I'm just a player - if I'm missing some pertinent detail in all of this, I'm willing to be educated. (But I reserve the right to run away and join the circus.)

As for getting hung up on minutae, I am definitely guilty of that sometimes -- sometimes to my detriment -- but in an online market where at least some of the decision making re. purchases, for some people, comes down to a geeky (or sometimes superficial) weighing of specs, it makes sense to insist on consistency in those specs. I don't think it's irrelevant in this case.

I give a lot of weight to subjective comparisons, too, depending on the source, but ultimately like something or don't on my own.
 
Hey TB,

Does anyone know of a 212 cab with small dimensions? I travel a lot from college to home in a car and I'm afraid that once I pack everything up there wont be enough space for my cabinet to fit in the trunk. I'm looking for a small, lightweight bass cabinet. I'd prefer a 212 because I don't think a sing 210 would really get the job done for most situations. Can anyone offer a little help?

Thanks.
Hey, OP. What are you playing now, and how's it working for you?

Might help to know trunk size (TS) parameters here, too. ;)
 
I'm not that into specs, either----what specs are quantifiable are important----but through experience I've found that at best they are a starting point. Much of the important factors---at least to me----are painfully obvious as soon as you get a cab in context on a gig. As a designer and builder specs are important to me----there are specs that are really important for designing speakers. But even the speaker manufacturers "fudge" their specs. I love Faital drivers for different uses. I bought an inexpensive but reasonably accurate device to measure certain driver parameters. In testing Faital woofers I was consistantly getting much higher resonant frequencies than their specs. I broke in the woofers, tried multiple woofers multiple times. The FS (resonant frequency---a good indicator of possible extension) was way off. 12 to 15 hz high. I just chalked it off to using a cheap device. I called Duke and talked to some other experts and they said that for testing Fs this device is very good. I checked all of my various Eminence woofers. They were all testing within 1 hz of their specs! Faital also uses a formula to figure out xmax (maximum excursion---a very useful spec) that is very optimistic as compared to Eminence.

Faitals are good drivers! But they choose to lean specs to their advantage---so I know how to interpolate.

I think where Duke and I get miffed is when people pick and choose how they present their specs merely to put their product in the best light. If I see someone saying that their electric bass cabinet has a useful response to 30hz I know that this figure came from the "marketing" department and know that it means nothing. But many shoppers don't. So if there are 3 cabs that are very close in function and one claims an advantage of more than a half octave of extension---especially that in reality there is little or no difference in extension---that's unfair marketing. Or if someone claims that their cab will move more air---and that claim is based on using a formula that presents their product in the advantageous position---and the competitors use the formula that the driver manufacturer uses and one cab appears to move more air---based on creative use of one way of measuring that parameter---it's unfair.

Hey-----all manufacturers are looking for a way to present their products in the best possible light, and are looking for real aspects of performance that put us ahead of our competition. And if these aspects are real and quantifiable---it's fair to use .

Duke and I are competitors. And good friends. If a guy is looking at both of our cabs---I obviously want him to choose mine! But if he chooses Duke's---I'm happy for Duke. And I'll look seriously into why he made the choice he did---and how that knowledge can help me to make a better cab. I initially got on this thread to comment on how I think that Duke makes the best 212. Let me clarify---the best 212 that covers MY needs. Duke will get on threads and talk about my speakers.

This is how things should be. If manufacturers are supportive of each other---and in friendly competition ---and that friendly competition spurs them on to make better products------this is what I would hope for. It's just like coming up in Chicago as a bassist.All of my bass playing competition here are all pretty good friends. Sometimes I'll get the call. Sometimes a buddy will get the call. But we remain supportive of each other. If someone else gets a call for a gig that I wanted to do----I can either get pissed and claim unfairness---or I can think "what do I need to improve so that I get the call next time".

I hope that as speaker designers and manufacturers we can behave in the same fashion.
 
I saw Roger chime in. He's a perfect example. When I started in this a few years ago I designed speakers to my taste Some guys loved them. Some didn't. Roger made a decision to go for a voicing that was not at all flat. But very functional and musical for MANY players. A great cabinet. But not a voicing that I prefer. And my early cabs were a voicing that I know some guys didn't prefer. So I wanted to be able to make cabs voiced differently for different needs. Roger's cab was a big inspiration. And you know what? In doing this my taste changed. I started liking a bit more forward midrange once I was taking these cabs on gigs. So I made dual crossovers to have switchable midrange response in many of my cabs. I choose to respect and learn from my competition.
 
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Oh crap. Sometimes being supportive comes back to bite you in the butt. In talking to Duke a while ago I said that if he did a 212 Hathor cabinet---that would scare me.

We just talked and he is coming out with a 212 cab with a 6.5" midrange and some sort of a tweeter. Kindof like a high end Hathor. Should be around the same size as the TC212 and come at around 50#.

Oh crap.
 
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Oh crap. Sometimes being supportive comes back to bite you in the butt. In talking to Duke a while ago I said that if he did a 212 Hathor cabinet---that would scare me.

We just talked and he is coming out with a 212 cab with a 6.5" midrange and some sort of a tweeter. Kindof like a high end Hathor. Should be around the same size as the TC212 and come at around 50#.

Oh crap.

Not to scare you too much more, Mike, but our new 212 will be out early next year and the current proto is a 3 way as well. Probably won't be as small as what Duke comes up with, but it is smaller and lighter than our current 212.
 
Can you guys please stop coming out with better and better cabinets? Well---I can be creative in my marketing, too. All of my cabs now go down to 15hz. No wait---12 hz. No, waitttt, 8.73hz. Yeah, that's it!!!

IMPORTANT note to mods. I'm joking.
 
Can you guys please stop coming out with better and better cabinets? Well---I can be creative in my marketing, too. All of my cabs now go down to 15hz. No wait---12 hz. No, waitttt, 8.73hz. Yeah, that's it!!!

IMPORTANT note to mods. I'm joking.

And let's not forget, those drivers f yours that have an X-max of 8" !!
 
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