Smooth Jazz is Jazz

[logdrum]

I like the guys and the bands they are associated with that were in the Casino Nights album (Larry Carlton et al) and that includes guys who are modern , hard bop, jazz guys - Kenny Garret, Bob James, Mark Turner etc. Grover Washington of course. Haslip. Wes, George B are not smooth jazz to me. They are straight ahead

I do not like Kenny G and probably I am influenced by Pat Metheny's take on him. JazzOasis.com - Pat Metheny on Kenny G .

When I hear a smooth jazz artist, I'd like to see if they go beyond pentatonic and diatonic scales and how much edge do they go or are they playing it safe all the time so that it is palatable to the masses. Call it pop then not jazz.

Smooth jazz with an edge and more adventurous and risk on the improvisation would be interesting to me. Otherwise I move on. I' am a fan of atmospheric cerebral ECM jazz though. And electric fusion, Chick Corea, Miles electric era.

You have to understand that I love and play free jazz / avant garde jazz / conduction. Smooth Jazz is really a hard sell to me.

 

[salmon256]

I'm pretty sure "Metal" players would disagree. Yngwie would probably fight you over that statement.

I mean yeah they would probably, but there's still no or at least last time I check at the Twelve Tables no law saying so. Blues for example can be super simple or super complex. So who cares what others say, music is subjective...

 

[jerry]

So would I, but curious why you wouldn’t call them smooth jazz. What are the elemental differences you hear in what they do versus, say, the Rippingtons?

To be clear I’m asking curiously, not combatively.

To me the Yellowjackets were a band where the rhythm section was considered part of the band. Rippingtons was Russ Freeman's project and he would just bring players in for the albums and tour with different players. The Yellowjackets had a glossy period too, but bringing in Mintzer was a great idea, that guy is a beast!

 

[turf3]

Well, there's a real close analogy:

Was what Paul Whiteman did jazz?

He had guys like Bix and Tram, Jack Teagarden, Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti, and Bunny Berigan on the band.

I think the question of what to call Whiteman's output will remain a topic of discussion forever, or until Gen Z+ decide to memory-hole all of it. I'd say offhand the fate of "smooth jazz" is going to be the same.

 

[57pbass]

Here is one of many example I can provide. This whole album (and many other Basia songs) are great jazz.

Such a great album.. I saw her when she came to town but unfortunately there was no bassist in the band. She was still great though..

 

[Geogio]

Sub genre's in jazz abound all the way down to trad and ragtime.
I've thought about it over time and have basically noted that to my ears there are two types of jazz

1. Inside jazz
2. Outside jazz

Or, as it sometimes referred to - inside/outside.

And it has nothing to do with physical location.

 

[jjk2007]

I like the guys and the bands they are associated with that were in the Casino Nights album (Larry Carlton et al) and that includes guys who are modern , hard bop, jazz guys - Kenny Garret, Bob James, Mark Turner etc. Grover Washington of course. Haslip. Wes, George B are not smooth jazz to me. They are straight ahead

I do not like Kenny G and probably I am influenced by Pat Metheny's take on him. JazzOasis.com - Pat Metheny on Kenny G .

When I hear a smooth jazz artist, I'd like to see if they go beyond pentatonic and diatonic scales and how much edge do they go or are they playing it safe all the time so that it is palatable to the masses. Call it pop then not jazz.

Smooth jazz with an edge and more adventurous and risk on the improvisation would be interesting to me. Otherwise I move on. I' am a fan of atmospheric cerebral ECM jazz though. And electric fusion, Chick Corea, Miles electric era.

You have to understand that I love and play free jazz / avant garde jazz / conduction. Smooth Jazz is really a hard sell to me.

The Pat Metheny stuff has been posted before....I remember Vail Johnson (Kenny G's bass player) came on here and had his own take on what Metheny said about wrapping his guitar around Kenny's head. In nice terms he said he'd like to see him try it in his presence and see what would happen. I know what would happen...Vail would fold Metheny up like a pretzel and I doubt he'd ever be able to hold a guitar again. But all that said, I don't think the G has ever gone out and said he's a 'jazz' musician but more of a 'pop artist' who happens to do it on the soprano sax.

 

[WG Plum]

I was totally onboard with Metheny's take on Kenny G until I watched the documentary on him. I'm still not a fan, and I have to admit that Kenny G just... confuses me. Guy can play, people love him, but is he somehow in on the joke? Is he somewhere on the spectrum? He's kind of fascinating in a really nebulous way.

Smooth jazz in general, for me, is the aural equivalent of industrial beige and plastic plants.

 

[bigdaddybass12]

Yes on some smooth jazz here too. I would love the chance to play bass for a jazz group. Just one good gig!
I also like a little fusion jazz, check this one out. It’s a song you can really get into due to the different rhythms:

 

[DJ Bebop]

This video illustrates something that has been on my mind lately. Smooth Jazz is often dismissed as formulaic are simply background music, but the same can be sound about acoustic Jazz or Classical, which are often employed for atmosphere at swank events. I am not saying a fair amount of Smooth Jazz is not lightweight, what I am saying is that all music should be listened to seriously before making any judgement.

 

[Pings Bass]

Anybody still gatekeeping "jazz" in 2023 needs a new hobby

 

[thmsjordan]

And this, is not smooth jazz, but I think it still fits in here.

That’s, Bob James, who wrote the theme to the show, Taxi, and that’s, Nathan Watts on bass.

Well, that's a Nathan on bass but rather --> Nathan East. Nathan Watts was too busy playing with Stevie Wonder......

 

[Joebone]

Smooth Jazz is Jazz..sometimes. Varies with the spontaneity and intentionality of the players. If "jazz is the sound of surprise," then tightly scripted grooves and rote solos don't make the grade. On intentionality, it's ok to tell a "Story" through music that is about a mellow or groove-oriented feeling - you don't always have to be plumbing the depths of spiritual or human experience in order to be doing Jazz. Where Smooth jazz fails is when the transparent intention is to sell a lot of product, and there is no heart or true investment of soul in the work. Sort of like the migration of some great R&B grooves into "Disco," throughout the 1970's, which became a parody of itself.

 

[turf3]

The Pat Metheny stuff has been posted before....I remember Vail Johnson (Kenny G's bass player) came on here and had his own take on what Metheny said about wrapping his guitar around Kenny's head. In nice terms he said he'd like to see him try it in his presence and see what would happen. I know what would happen...Vail would fold Metheny up like a pretzel and I doubt he'd ever be able to hold a guitar again. But all that said, I don't think the G has ever gone out and said he's a 'jazz' musician but more of a 'pop artist' who happens to do it on the soprano sax.

Well, the idea that Pat Metheny, who has reissued the same album twenty times over and slathers everything in that horrible "ooh-ooh" synthetic vocal pad, would take Kenny to task for "desecrating" what's surely the very most CHEESY thing Pops ever did (and there was a LOT of cheese in Armstrong's career) is just laughable. I mean, to read Metheny's rant, you'd think "What a Wonderful World" was something from Albert Ayler or such.

At least folks like Gerald Albright, Leo P, Kenny G, etc., don't try to position themselves as some kinds of "keepers of the holy flame". They're just trying to make music that people like and will sell. Metheny, on the other hand, managed to show his ass in front of everyone by coupling prissiness and snobbery with a career worth of pabulum.

 

[57pbass]

I read somewhere ( probably here ) that Yacht Rock was the precursor of Smooth Jazz.

 

[Keyser Soze]

smooth jazz hosts and boasts so many great players --- listening to the stuff might put some to sleep, but playing it will test your mettle.

Like Jazz-Rock Confusion, SmooveJazz is more fun to play than it is to listen to.

 

[Bass-ball]

I read somewhere ( probably here ) that Yacht Rock was the precursor of Smooth Jazz.

That was probably me. Those two genres are my mainstays.

 

[Bass-ball]

I don't worry about labels. When the Bad Plus, a fantastic piano/upright bass/drums trio, started covering Smells Like Teen Spirit, it was playing a "rock" song. A lot of jazz standards started as Broadway or Tin Pan Alley pop songs. Maynard Ferguson covered the Rocky theme. Chuck Mangione had some sick trad jazz chops. Etc.

If you like it, you like it.

Bob James, possibly the Godfather of Smooth Jazz, covered Elton John's "Rocket Man" in his last "live in the studio" album (called "Feel Like Makin' Live," a take on one of his songs "Feel Like Makin' Love"). So yeah, it's not uncommon for these guys to cover a song or write an original with a 'hook' for the common listener. Even one of my favorite smooth jazz guitarists, Norman Brown, wrote a song aptly named "Outside the Norm" where he drops the hollow-body smooth jazz guitar tone, picks up an electric guitar, and whips out a rock tune:



Russ Freeman does something similar in his live shows. I've even heard the Ripps cover Hendrix tunes in a live setting. The crowd (all 10 of us!) usually go nuts lol

 

[Watchootognbout]

This brings the "G" question. Is he playing Jazz too? *brings out popcorn*

He used to.

 

[J Wilson]

It's always surprising to me that purists rail about what is and isn't Jazz, surely the most un-category-ised and wide ranging of any genre, and the one that benefits from the many rivers running through it the most.