So, I generally hate the Fender tone stack...

[beans-on-toast]

Check out the Duncan tone stack calculator. It provides a visual for what effect adjusting the knobs of various tone stacks have.

 

[Steve Dallman]

A Fender tone stack has an inherent mid cut. (BTW, it's called a "stack" because that's what the circuit looks like on a schematic, mid on bottom, bass stacked on top of that and treble stacked on top.)

It cannot produce a "flat" tone. The closest you can get is to turn the mid up all the way, and turn the bass and treble all the way down. It still won't be flat, but it's as close as you'll get...and it won't sound good.

The inherent mid cut creates a tone we all know and love. Maybe better for guitar than bass though.

The controls are also very interactive. Turn the bass up, and the mid and treble will act differently. Turn one control and the action of the others are affected.

The mid control in a Fender actually affects the whole range of tones. It lifts the entire stack off ground, raising all tones. But to our ears, we hear it affecting primarily mids.

Baxandall controls (bass and treble) act as "active" controls. Centered is flat and the controls don't interact. It doesn't have an inherent mid cut, but if you boost bass and treble, the mids stay flat and in relation to the bass and treble, it sounds like the mid is cut.

I rewired a Bassman 100. The bass channel now has an Ampeg type circuit with baxandall bass and treble. The normal channel has Fender type passive controls although I tuned them an octave lower for bass. It also has a mid slope control for added control which sort of shifts the mids.

Despite the 4 controls of the Fender type channel, the Baxandall channel sounds better. Fuller, more clarity, almost a 3D quality compared to the slightly "lifeless" tone of the Fender channel. The Fender channel is good, but the Ampeg channel is just "better."

I was surprised.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I've been able to get some good sounds with amps using Fender tone stacks, but I still dig something that will let you get more mid-forward and cut more treble if you need it. Especially the cutting treble part.

I hate to admit it but I totally agree with Jimmy.


I NEVER need more treble out of my Mesa Bass 400.
I always wish I could cut the treble a hair more and bump up the low mids without resorting to the graphic.
The graphic EQ It seems like it makes too extreme changes too quickly.
The mid cut is useful sometimes, but is more at home on a guitar amp (which the Mesa Bass 400 is pretty good as!).
I think that is why later Mesa bass amps with the Fender EQ also have an "active mid".
Funny thing is, whenever I have played through a Bassman or Showman it sounds nothing like the spin offs. On the Fender amps it actually works pretty good.

 

[Korladis]

Yeah... definitely with Calaveras and Jimmy on this one.

There has been no situation in which, playing my D-180, I thought "Damn, I wish I could get more treble." None. Ever.

And playing bass, that mid knob has never moved from its place at "10."

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I was actually selling one of my cabs to some kids a few months ago. They brought a silverface Bassman to audition the cab. I was blown away by how good it sounded.
There really is a special tone with a Fender Jazz into a Bassman. Not much low bass, not very much high end, but MIDRANGE for days.
I will probably pick up the next Bassman I see just to record with.
But only after I get one of those Fender Japan 70's RI Jazz basses.

 

[Old Fart]

I'm pretty happy with the tone stack and controls on my SVT.

 

[esa372]

A Fender tone stack has an inherent mid cut.

It cannot produce a "flat" tone. The closest you can get is to turn the mid up all the way, and turn the bass and treble all the way down. It still won't be flat, but it's as close as you'll get...and it won't sound good.

Not quite true:

With a little more tweaking, it can be made almost ruler-flat, and it sounds great.

Also, here is an article which may help some in understanding how these controls work:

The FMV Tone Stack Explained In English For Humans

 

[sevdog]

My LH500 is a great sounding amp.

 

[majortoby]

On paper, It's always looked "inferior", or "dated" to me. However, in person, I've always found it effective enough for getting a sound I enjoy.

 

[seanm]

Never liked the Fender tone stack. There is really only one reasonable setting (IMHO) and therefore it is useless to control tone.

For those who love it, what do you do if you have a boomy venue and need to cut the lows?

 

[esa372]

For those who love it, what do you do if you have a boomy venue and need to cut the lows?

We cut the lows.

Here's a rather dramtic setting:

...but, there are many less extreme low-cut settings.

You can get almost any tone you want; the exception being a mid-boost. The key is understanding how the controls interact.

 

[Passinwind]

Never liked the Fender tone stack. There is really only one reasonable setting (IMHO) and therefore it is useless to control tone.

For those who love it, what do you do if you have a boomy venue and need to cut the lows?

As quite a few amp and preamp makers do, I just bake in mid boost in some other stage, which is why just looking at the tone stack by itself doesn't give the whole picture very well at all. For me the Fender stack is just one of half a dozen or so workable options though, and I'm always open to checking out others beyond that.

 

[beans-on-toast]

It is important to take into account that tone stack calculators like the one above are not going to reflect what is going on in a real amp where the input and output impedance of what the stack is connected to comes into play.

So the settings on any particular amp will not be the same as what the calculator predicts that you should use. Use it as a guide as to what is going on.

 

[Passinwind]

It is important to take into account that tone stack calculators like the one above are not going to reflect what is going on in a real amp where the input and output impedance of what the stack is connected to comes into play.

So the settings on any particular amp will not be the same as what the calculator predicts that you should use.

Yep, for example here is the measured response curve of an F2B feeding a 10K input of my soundcard, settings 2-10-2:

Link Removed

Duncan's TSC does at least allow you to change all the component values though, including the output load as a simple resistance.

 

[esa372]

...tone stack calculators like the one above are not going to reflect what is going on in a real amp...

...the settings on any particular amp will not be the same as what the calculator predicts that you should use.

Ah, yes... Infinite variables create infinite doubt.

In my experience, though, the Duncan TSC is spot-on in its predictions. But, this being the age of endless debate, YMMV.

Use it as a guide as to what is going on.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Ah, yes... Infinite variables create infinite doubt.

In my experience, though, the Duncan TSC is spot-on in its predictions. But, this being the age of endless debate, YMMV.

There is a point where you have to acknowledge that while not all of the tube amp "magic" can be entirely quantified, tools like the tone stack calculator get you 99% of the way there. Besides what is the alternative? Build an amp by intuition? We can't all be Dumble.

 

[esa372]

There is a point where you have to acknowledge that while not all of the tube amp "magic" can be entirely quantified, tools like the tone stack calculator get you 99% of the way there. Besides what is the alternative? Build an amp by intuition? We can't all be Dumble.

Well-said.

 

[D.M.N.]

I don't know exactly what tone stack it is, but whatever is in the 120w Sunns (2000s, 1200s) is my favorite at the moment. Doesn't really have a mid knob, just Contour, but that knob makes some pretty drastic changes to the tone (IMO). I've tried some older Bassmans, Silver faced ones, and I could never get along with them, could never get the mid content I wanted. I won't say I HATE that tone stack, as it could have been some other factors, but I have yet to enjoy the Fender tone stack (unless that's what's in the Sunns, but I rather doubt that). I would like to try a blackface Showman at some point though, I've heard good things.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Besides what is the alternative? Build an amp by intuition?

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the tube amp calculator does't serve a purpose. It is accurate in showing what an isolated stage can do. But load it down with circuits on the input and output and things change. How much so depends on the amp design. It might get you most of the way there in some cases, but you can't assume that it is always going to perform that well.

Think of the tone circuit calculator as the equivalent of a set of speaker specs and performance charts. When you want to build a speaker cabinet, you just don't consider the speaker spec sheet. You model the speaker in the cabinet because the speaker interacts with the cabinet and it changes the way that the speaker works. It doesn't perform the same sitting on a bench as it does in a cabinet.

When I was taught how to design amps, we used slide rules, tube data sheets, charts, formulas, rules of thumb, and our ears. You drew lines on graphs and came up with numbers. This allowed you to bypass some of the math. Assumptions allowed you to cut some corners. Circuits were analyzed with something called network analysis, which allows you to break down the circuit using models, come up with a set of simpler equations that you would crank through. When you performed an analysis, it was applied to the entire amp, not just a sub circuit. Today designers use sophisticated computer models. The better models take advantage of all the detailed equations and come up with a more refined estimate of how the amp will perform.

In the end, it is still a model though. You build the circuit, listen, look at the data that the test equipment provides, go back and modify the design, retest and continue the iterations until you are satisfied. Even the best test equipment can't tell the whole story. Audio is incredibly complicated and we are far from understanding everything. So intuition, art, and a good sense of what is going on are important design tools as well.

 

[Passinwind]

In the end, it is still a model though. You build the circuit, listen, look at the data that the test equipment provides, go back and modify the design, retest and continue the iterations until you are satisfied. Even the best test equipment can't tell the whole story. Audio is incredibly complicated and we are far from understanding everything. So intuition, art, and a good sense of what is going on are important design tools as well.

Yep, and as Duke said: "If it sounds good, it is good."