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Double Bass So I have to admit..

Andy Mopley

Andy Mopley

Sep 24, 2011
1,335
318
#1
I am finding that whilst I can keep time with a metronome, I do tend to cut the last beat always a little short, and not give it the full time value. I seem to recall from one of the other posts that this is a common problem with beginners. So the question is, what metronome (or other) specific exercises are recommended to ensure the issue is addressed, that is so I don't cut the last note in the bar short? It also tends to happen more frequently during rehearsals but I put this down to a sort of "performance anxiety" but practice will hopefully address this as well.

Regards to all
 
#4
Andy Mopley said:
I am finding that whilst I can keep time with a metronome, I do tend to cut the last beat always a little short, and not give it the full time value. I seem to recall from one of the other posts that this is a common problem with beginners. So the question is, what metronome (or other) specific exercises are recommended to ensure the issue is addressed, that is so I don't cut the last note in the bar short? It also tends to happen more frequently during rehearsals but I put this down to a sort of "performance anxiety" but practice will hopefully address this as well.

Regards to all
Click to expand...

This exercise will assuredly improve your time:



Beyond that, practice makes perfect.
 
#7
I'm assuming you mean that you clip the last beat of each measure, and are in a hurry to play the onset of beat one in the subsequent measure? Phrase the last beat (in your head, while you play, but not audible) of a measure as a pickup to beat one of the subsequent measure. E.G., in 4/4 time:

ONE - two - three - FOUR | ONE - two - three - FOUR | ONE - two - three - FOUR | etc.

Understand also, why you don't observe the full duration. Are you pizzing? In pizz, the problem of clipping durations is more pronounced because after the string is excited, the hand is no longer grounded to a vibration, the energy. In other words, the hand no longer is a participant in making sound. So it thinks it's time to make sound, again, even before it's time, and it wants to jump to the next note. [all anecdotal observations of many years of teaching students--no science was involved]
 
#8
Is it a problem without a bass in your hands?

There's always so much to pay attention to when playing, and I don't think our brains can really concentrate on more than one or two things at a time. If the techniques you use aren't yet reflexive, you can lose track of the more basic things like rhythm.

When I have complicated rhythms to learn, I always start with singing or clapping. If I have to learn everything at once, my brain is too overloaded with information.
 
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#9
Just to add to what Paul says above, I like to turn the metronome on while I am getting ready, to just establish the time in the room.
Also, I recommend using it on all 3 or 4 quarter notes for a few years. Isolating time practice with and without the bass should be specific as Paul points out. Use random or memorized passages. I would not add the Metronome to regular etude or scale practice. I use random chromatic walking lines daily with it on all four beats ( I know this is the orchestral forum, similar basic figures arco would work). I do this after my scales and warm ups, sometime before etudes, sometimes after. Being able to enjoy metronome practice and forming a strong sense of time is one of the best things you can do for yourself.
 
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#11
Maybe practicing your rhythmic sense away from the instrument would be beneficial. There is the rhythmic solfege of Southern India called Solkattu. There are two books, "You can Ta Ka Di Mi This" by Todd Isler and "Solkattu Manual" David Nelson that are great. You recite the syllables while keeping the time cycle with your hands, which gives you a physical sense of the beat. Once you get the basics down, and can feel the groove of each subdivision of the beat, then you can start to do rhythmic puzzles, like playing 5 against 3, or 5 against 4, 7 in 5 etc. This video explains it well, he doesn't use the taal hand gestures but the ideas are great,
 
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#12
Jeff Kissell said:
Practice with the metronome at half time on beats two and four, you fill in the one and three.
Click to expand...
I found this is a very usefull excercise. Besides that it might help to get a better grip on the pulse and focus less on the individual beats. Using the metronome in half time (or wherever the pulse is), tapping in half time or moving your body in half time can help.
 
#13
Both of these posts cloud the issue and are both not answers to this question. They could both be good answers to completely different questions. Mainly, the OP is talking about building time and not rhythm.
Matthijs said:
I found this is a very usefull excercise. Besides that it might help to get a better grip on the pulse and focus less on the individual beats. Using the metronome in half time (or wherever the pulse is), tapping in half time or moving your body in half time can help.
Click to expand...
I actually don't recommend this ever. Some people like it. First of all it is the Orchestral forum, so the 2 & 4 are not necessarily the right beats to focus on. Second, 2/2 and 3/4 come up more often than in other areas and thirdly, even for quarter note based music a great drummer will have that raw pulse going. If there anything I have done it is play with several master drummers. When I have the metronome on all 4 beats it feels like a great drummer to me. I can freely play on and off it.

JNbass said:
Maybe practicing your rhythmic sense away from the instrument would be beneficial. There is the rhythmic solfege of Southern India called Solkattu. There are two books, "You can Ta Ka Di Mi This" by Todd Isler and "Solkattu Manual" David Nelson that are great. You recite the syllables while keeping the time cycle with your hands, which gives you a physical sense of the beat. Once you get the basics down, and can feel the groove of each subdivision of the beat, then you can start to do rhythmic puzzles, like playing 5 against 3, or 5 against 4, 7 in 5 etc. This video explains it well, he doesn't use the taal hand gestures but the ideas are great,
Click to expand...


This advice is solid for a person with good time looking to work out the subdivisions and other intricate rhythms. I've used the more watered down syllable system the trumpet player Don Cherry simplified for western musicians (Gamala = 3, Taki = 2). Great stuff, but no help for the issue at hand, where the OP really needs to focus on each individual beat more than anything.

Practice regularly with the metronome on all the quarter notes. Make the metronome sound good.
 
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#14
"Practice regularly with the metronome on all the quarter notes. Make the metronome sound good."

Thanks damonsmith - I have started to incorporate this in my practice routine, do you recommend starting at low speed (say 70bpm) and increasing gradually? When you say make the metronome sound good, do you mean like if you were playing with another player??
 
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#15
I recommend spending time with it as slow as it goes or 20-40 on one that goes down to 1 or 2! After that it is good to move it around.
The slow setting is about being able to control more space between beats. If you look a Mondrian painting:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...iet_Mondriaan,_1939-1942_-_Composition_10.jpg
You might see lines and blue and red, but the space is actually white paint that had to be painted in like the other elements, and in the case of this painting most of the paint on the canvas is white.
You are learning to actively control and place space in music.
It is good to spend time in all the settings, I move it around at random each day. Slow practice is great, but one of my teachers said, "if you want to play fast you have to practice fast". So spend some time with the uptempo settings as well.
 
#16
Thanks damonsmith - on your last comment, there is a method preached by a former TB member (Lauren Hicks) where she talks about a +10 -5 approach, where you start practicing a piece at a base speed (say 40bpm) then after a few times you change the speed to 50bpm (+10) before dropping back to 45 (-5), and you keep increasing until you get to the desired speed/sound..Interestingly she doesn't do this as part of a daily routine, but she does for slow practice. Horses for courses I guess!

So somewhat similar to what your teacher said about fast practice but in a way that yo reach the goal gradually.

Thanks again.
 
#17
This might be a waste of time considering your specific problems, but there are exercises that involve putting the metronome on once in the bar on somewhere other than the down beat to develop your skills at subdividing. (ie. The last sixteenth note of beat 4).
I started watching a youtube channel called the 80/20 drummer a few months back, and it is humbling when you start trying to do it for yourself. I am a little embarrassed to say I didn't really stick with this kind of metronome work.

The skills used to make a prediction about where the metronome will fall (accurate subdividing), and what most people do - reacting to the metronome that gives you every beat (listening) are really different.

It is usually changing rates (ie. Quarters to eigths, eights to eighth note triples etc.) that you will find you are rushing or dragging.

Start with the metronome on two, or four instead of one... Try to know right where the metronome will land, like you are playing it.
 
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#19
I've read and thought about the advice given above and find that one short sentence, "Try to know right where the metronome will land, like you are playing it.", is the best advice so far. Is your problem mental, physical or mechanical? Feeling the rythmic pulse internally comes easier for some than others. Most of us associate rythm with moving bigger muscle groups. Are you mentally relaxed as you snap/tap your fingers in time with a steady metronome beat? If you set the bell to ping on the first beat of 4/4 can you confidently predict that precise moment in time to snap/tap while keeping the other beats relaxed and very steady. If you comfortably swing your hand from side to side with relaxed bounce like the arm of a mechanical metronome can you feel the beats strongly and more easily predict the exact moment to snap your fingers on the (first) downbeat? Then turn your attention to the last of 4 very even beats in the "bar" and fill the beat with a sound a sound like "zzzz" that is chopped of by the fingers snapping/tapping the down beat. It's like saying Off 2 3 4. So, away from the bass, are you relaxed and comfortable with giving the last beat its full length?

Now turn your attention to the mechanics of playing out the last beat on the bass, first with Pizzicato. With Arco we all give much attention to placing the first beat and probably less to the others. The beginner's mistake is to lose control of the strings by lifting off weight at the end of each bow stroke in order to be comfortable with starting the next note. Try the following in a very relaxed state of mind while looking down and observing the interaction between the bow and the D string.

Rest the R arm weight gently but firmly on the (D) string through a relaxed and springy bow hold. The hair will gently bend around the string and control its full (moderately wide) vibrations without killing them as the bow moves and "hooks" onto the sound. Choose the weight, bow speed and contact point (below the end of the fingerboard) that give you whole bow strokes with mezzo piano and good tone at a slow speed (mm50 - 60). Experiment with keeping everything even and steady right through each note and then VERY SIMPLY change bow directions (no fussy finger or wrist movements) right on the down beat with no "release" of weight. This is truly On-the-String bowing where simplisticly X amount of movement produces X length of sound. At each end-change feel the bow grab the string and take up the little bit of spring in the fingers and wrist as it "turns the corner". Observe what happens to the string vibrations as you experiment with varying weights, speeds and contact points. You should find that good control of bow changes does not necessarily need flamboyant movements of fingers, wrist and arm with lots of "release". You can always add accents, staccato and release, and crescendo/diminuendo to the mix later. Out of all this might come relaxed control over predicting any precise moment in time of your choosing without losing the beat.

Why all this blah blah blah? Hopefully through the above you become more relaxed with timing and co-ordination between hands and more confident about giving beats and sounds their full value. It is important to work past relying on a metronome towards internalising rythm and also treating the other instruments and their parts as your sources of rythm and timing (get your eyes and ears up out of your part and section to listen and watch much more widely afield!!)
 
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