Double Bass So I have to admit..

[damonsmith]

Due respect to maestro Potts, this is just another over elaborate fix to a very basic problem. Everything mentioned will help any of us refine our time but we are talking about building basic time. A year or two of 4 on the floor metronome practice 10 or 20min a day is the very best thing for this situation.
A direct answer to a simple issue is what is needed here.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Link Removed

I am finding this particularly helpful, Damon.

 

[damonsmith]

For me, I had to go back to a normal metronome not connected to the internet. The internet is too distracting for practice. I don't think the gaps and things like are very helpful for the issue you describe. Just daily focused practice with the metronome on all four (or three in 3/4) for a few years is the best medicine.
Memorize a few four quarter note phrases and use them. A year or ten down the line these other things might be helpful!!

 

[damonsmith]

This a take two aspirin and call me in the morning thing, not a surgery thing. Don't over think it or over complicate it. Good time takes time. Just do the work everyday, don't look for work-arounds.

 

[David Potts]

Hi Damon, "maestro" I am not, just an old geezer who has been teaching bass since 1970. Out of the many students there have been two sorts, broadly speaking. Those who want to understand why and those who just want to do it. Andy has been one of the drivers of this forum over quite a long period of time. By the sort of question that he has often asked I would place him in the former category and tried to give him thoughtful answers. While I respect other peoples' responses to threads in this forum and often learn from them too the answers do not always show a clear understanding of the initial questions.

Metronomes have always driven me nuts and are only personally tolerated for short periods during practice. The same goes for tuners and using drones for establishing intonation. These are external mechanical aids that people should move past fairly quickly towards internalising good rythm and intonation. It surprises me that there is (almost) never any mention of recording your practice. I know this can be done with a smart phone but I am thinking of a little Tascam digital recorder that you play back through headphones. Much better quality results without great expense.

Cheers everyone.

 

[the_Ryan]

Hi Damon, "maestro" I am not, just an old geezer who has been teaching bass since 1970. Out of the many students there have been two sorts, broadly speaking. Those who want to understand why and those who just want to do it. Andy has been one of the drivers of this forum over quite a long period of time. By the sort of question that he has often asked I would place him in the former category and tried to give him thoughtful answers. While I respect other peoples' responses to threads in this forum and often learn from them too the answers do not always show a clear understanding of the initial questions.

Metronomes have always driven me nuts and are only personally tolerated for short periods during practice. The same goes for tuners and using drones for establishing intonation. These are external mechanical aids that people should move past fairly quickly towards internalising good rythm and intonation. It surprises me that there is (almost) never any mention of recording your practice. I know this can be done with a smart phone but I am thinking of a little Tascam digital recorder that you play back through headphones. Much better quality results without great expense.

Cheers everyone.

Agreed.

Recording yourself is a great way to discover things about your technique or musicality from a third-person perspective. I personally just take video recordings with my phone.

 

[damonsmith]

Metronomes have always driven me nuts and are only personally tolerated for short periods during practice. The same goes for tuners and using drones for establishing intonation. These are external mechanical aids that people should move past fairly quickly towards internalising good rythm and intonation.

It is interesting that I feel this way about tuners and drones and not metronomes. I use a tuner to check pitch if I feel like I am having trouble with a pitch or shift and then stop using it. I do not like any fancy sounding metronomes, drum machines or any of that. Just a click on every beat so any musicality is provided by the bassist. This also helps with my theories of a hard cut between playing and practice.

As far as the metronome, I only do concentrated metronome work - I never use it for tunes, etudes or compositions. I spend time focusing on it and drop it when I move on to playing pieces. At this point it is something I enjoy doing and some days I do it for a long time. At this point, I feel completely free with the metronome on.

For me, I may not keep daily practice with it if played any traditional music regularly with others, but I do not. It helps me keep my time sharp even though directly expressed time it only happens for fleeting moments in the music I play.
I love to play free music with master drummers who have a jazz background and that is what I do so it seems to be working for me.

I would recommend spending a few years with it in situations like this, probably until a student is playing regularly with great musicians.

 

[Ed Holmes]

Subdivide. Use 1e&a, Eastman, Kodaly, etc. Always have a finer subdivision going on in your head as you play notes (or count rests): 1e&a, 2e&a, 3e&a, 4e&a (or 1-la-lee, 2-la-lee in a triple rhythm). Be like an atomic clock's crystal. This background subdivision (becomes automatic with some practice and routining) also ensures accurate tied notes, dotted rhythms, pickups, syncopations., etc. Count like mad! Subdivide like mad!

 

[Andy Mopley]

Thanks Ed (and all) - the subdividing is something that our conductor keeps reminding us!
As an aside, I am not usually a TED aficionado, but I thought this concept also somewhat interesting, although not new..
What If We Visualised Rhythm With Circles Instead Of Traditional Bars

 

[damonsmith]

Subdivisions as well as feeling basic poly-rhythms is super important but a huge, and I mean HUGE distraction from instilling basic time, which is why I keep saying it.
Quarter notes with metronome is not fun, cool or sexy, but it is what works. The more distractions you pile on, the longer it will take to solidify your quarter notes. When your quarter notes are rock solid, the other stuff is not problem.

 

[damonsmith]

Basically, all these complex ideas being thrown out are all rookie mistakes drummers make for early practice. They are the sort of thing that creates those drummers that have everything but they speed up....

 

[Ed Holmes]

Damon, I wholly agree with your emphasis on diligently practicing with the metronome (steady quarters at any metronome beat) as the basis for time, which I still practice frequently. Ed

 

[Andy Mopley]

Ed, Damon, (and all) is it fair to say though, that at some point the metronome must be stopped? Once the rhythms and consistent tempo are mastered, the metronome goes silent? And why isn't keeping time like riding a bike, is it because challenging pieces require adjustments to techniques (for example) which subconsciously makes some playing behind / ahead of the pulse of the music? Does timing improve with practice but it must forever be "checked"?

The other point, and perhaps a different thread altogether, is that I am also trying to understand at which point music should be "intuitive" rather than mechanical, so to speak. For me, yes, timing is key, 100%, but it just as relevant internalize the music. I can be 100% accurate on timing, yet expressionless in playing.

Thanks again to everyone for the response, I am most appreciative.

 

[damonsmith]

I still do it daily. I am not sure if I need to or not. It seems to get better and better and more and more free. Most of the other posts are about rhythm and not time and tempo. The metronome stops when I do etudes and pieces of music and of course, concerts.
What I advocate for is directly focusing on time without other distractions for a while each day.

 

[ctrlzjones]

For the use of all the external helpers (drones, metronomes etc): It is all about forming a conscious inner structure that, over time, becomes reliable enough for making the references in the outside world gratuitous, or is it not?

For achieving that it can be an interesting experience to gradually turn their volumes down, until they are not really heard any more but still remain "in the room" or "in ones mind/body" ...

 

[damonsmith]

In my experience, you can get it to "disappear" while it is still on. Like so many things, there are different points you get to, stopping your metronome study too soon can leave you with stiff time. After many years of daily work with it, I can walk quarter notes, do bow exercises and play completely free with it on. I am just about two decades in, so I am excited to see what happens next!

 

[okcrum]

Are you recording yourself, practice, rehearsal, gigs? You'd have heard that on the first one.

It was a humbling revelation of all the little things I needed to clean up when I started doing it.

 

[damonsmith]

Are you recording yourself, practice, rehearsal, gigs? You'd have heard that on the first one.

It was a humbling revelation of all the little things I needed to clean up when I started doing it.

I am not trying to be the "watchdog" on this thread, but: that is a great way to identify issues. However, this issue has been identified. I would call recording yourself to identify a known issue a huge distraction. We are talking about a basic sense if time, not "all of the little things".
I know we love getting off topic here, but if bass players can't focus on a basic sense of time...

 

[okcrum]

I am not trying to be the "watchdog" on this thread, but: that is a great way to identify issues. However, this issue has been identified. I would call recording yourself to identify a known issue a huge distraction. We are talking about a basic sense if time, not "all of the little things".
I know we love getting off topic here, but if bass players can't focus on a basic sense of time...

My reply was in the sense that there are a lot of little things about time, too.

 

[damonsmith]

My reply was in the sense that there are a lot of little things about time, too.

There are a lot of little things about rhythm. A basic sense of time is a basic sense of time. We should be able to hear pretty clearly whether we are playing on the metronome click or not. The "little things" about time are only relevant to practice once we get control of them, which is not relevant to the topic of solidifying basic time.