So Many Bass Guitars in Jazz?

[brianrost]

Subtopic: why do so many live music festivals brand themselves as "Jazz" which clearly are not.

Subanswer: ticket sales, baby!!! It's easy to get larger audiences by pulling in people who aren't jazz fans by putting a rock band or even Willie Nelson (I've see more than one fest do that) atop the bill.

the first time I saw it was a New Grass Revival show several years later. Not only was it an EB, but John Cowin was playing a Kibicki so the visual was even more surreal for someone who had never seen bluegrass with an EB.

I once saw banjo master Tony Trischka play a bluegrass festival with not only a bass guitarist but a woman playing a synthesizer!

I once saw John Cowan's post-Newgrass bluegrass band where he played bass guitar. Toward the end of his set, John brought John Paul Jones on stage, handed JPJ his bass and they played "Dazed and Confused", complete with banjo solo You had to be there...

It's become more accepted and in fact it's almost time for a counter-wave of double bass players.

Back in the early 80s there was a period where a lot of guys played straight ahead on DB and fusion on BG...John Pattitucci, Christian McBride, Lonnie Plaxico, etc. In the 60s even giants like Ray Brown and Ron Carter played bass guitars on studio sessions.

P.S. the latest Dave Holland CD has him using bass guitar on a few of the songs.

 

[Acoop]

It's much easier to travel with an electric than an upright. ... I play jazz on both upright and electric and I decide first, how far away the gig is and second, how I'm getting to the gig before I decide what bass I'll take to it bring. ... I'm not too concerned how it looks to the audience as long as the notes are there.

 

[ClusterFlux]

Make ANY Bass Sound Like An Upright - Online Bass Lessons - YouTube

Yeah, that stuff doesn't really work. You won't sound like a DB just by plucking over the neck on a P with flats.

I've gotten in the general neighborhood by using lots of tricks -- e.g. running a fretless chambered bass with flats and a piezo pickup through IRs, compression and EQ. I'm reasonably optimistic the tech will get more streamlined in a few years.

 

[thmsjordan]

Acoustic upright is cool but it certainly isn't the main bass of modern jazz. There has been plenty of jazz tunes recorded on electric since the electric bass came out. Lionel Hampton, Sonny Rollins, Dizzy Gillespie, Buddy Rich, and many others have used electric for many reasons over the years and yet there is a certain contingent that hate them and throw shade wherever and whenever possible. Mel Lewis was one of those guys. Keith Jarret is another.

As a guy who has played both basses ad nauseum and had to tour with them, I can tell you it is a major P.I.T.A to transport an upright and it is a massive risk to a good instrument. This is part of the reason you don't see them as much.

It is also true that many modern jazz groups just use electric and don't try to sound traditional. Groups like Incognito are Jazz oriented and certainly don't try to sound old school.

Add to this the rise of EUB's which are far easier to travel with, and the possibility of making an electric sound a lot like an upright (Chris Brubeck comes to mind) and you just see less of them.

 

[Altitude]

Subanswer: ticket sales, baby!!! It's easy to get larger audiences by pulling in people who aren't jazz fans by putting a rock band or even Willie Nelson (I've see more than one fest do that) atop the bill.

Not sure I understand - you're saying that if your headliner is Pearl Jam, you'll sell more tickets if you call it a jazz festival?

 

[J_Bass]

Acoustic upright is cool but it certainly isn't the main bass of modern jazz. There has been plenty of jazz tunes recorded on electric since the electric bass came out. Lionel Hampton, Sonny Rollins, Dizzy Gillespie, Buddy Rich, and many others have used electric for many reasons over the years and yet there is a certain contingent that hate them and throw shade wherever and whenever possible. Mel Lewis was one of those guys. Keith Jarret is another.

As a guy who has played both basses ad nauseum and had to tour with them, I can tell you it is a major P.I.T.A to transport an upright and it is a massive risk to a good instrument. This is part of the reason you don't see them as much.

It is also true that many modern jazz groups just use electric and don't try to sound traditional. Groups like Incognito are Jazz oriented and certainly don't try to sound old school.

Add to this the rise of EUB's which are far easier to travel with, and the possibility of making an electric sound a lot like an upright (Chris Brubeck comes to mind) and you just see less of them.

This is Jazz, to you?




They would fit well on the Toronto "Jazz" Festival, though.

 

[thmsjordan]

Yeah, that stuff doesn't really work. You won't sound like a DB just by plucking over the neck on a P with flats.

I've gotten in the general neighborhood by using lots of tricks -- e.g. running a fretless chambered bass with flats and a piezo pickup through IRs, compression and EQ. I'm reasonably optimistic the tech will get more streamlined in a few years.

Agreed, that video isn't that helpful. There are two guys that come really close IMHO and they are Tom Warrington:

Chris Brubeck:


In both cases their approach and touch have a lot to do with the sound they produce.

 

[zubrycky]

To mimic the upright, IMHO, it's very important to keep the correct mindframe and play less notes, just like a DB player would do.

The BG scale make things easier to play and the end result with too many notes will sound unnatural (if the idea is to mimic a double bass).

 

[thmsjordan]

This is Jazz, to you?




They would fit well on the Toronto "Jazz" Festival, though.

Look at their entire output and you can see they do have a jazz bent. They play plenty of jazz festivals. Would I put them in the same league as Thelonious Monk? No, would I call them Strictly jazz? Nope, would I say they lean in a modern Jazz direction? I would say yes. Labels aren't what they used to be.

 

[J_Bass]

Look at their entire output and you can see they do have a jazz bent. They play plenty of jazz festivals. Would I put them in the same league as Thelonious Monk? No, would I call them Strictly jazz? Nope, would I say they lean in a modern Jazz direction? I would say yes. Labels aren't what they used to be.

That's disco, or something like that.

Where is the improvisation? The solos?

 

[thmsjordan]

That's disco, or something like that.

Where is the improvisation? The solos?

OY, I was around for disco and this ain't it.

If you want to hear the players soloing, grab a few live concert videos on your own and you'll hear some very competent solo's from these band members and if you don't think it's Jazz then fine - I could care less.

I have played traditional Jazz my whole life but I am very open minded about what passes as jazz. I am fine with your disagreeing but you are gonna have to look further than the one video you posted to find anything "Jazz" in what they do.

Don't just hold up one video and then demand I answer for what you must consider my mistake. We disagree and I am happy to just disagree on this.

 

[J_Bass]

Improvisation is an essential part of Jazz playing. It's its essence. Without improvisation, you have no Jazz.

I would call this Jazz:

 

[ToddB1963]

Yeah, that stuff doesn't really work. You won't sound like a DB just by plucking over the neck on a P with flats.

I've gotten in the general neighborhood by using lots of tricks -- e.g. running a fretless chambered bass with flats and a piezo pickup through IRs, compression and EQ. I'm reasonably optimistic the tech will get more streamlined in a few years.

I love the upright, but after watching Tommy Warrington with Buddy Rich I'm never left thinking "he'd have sounded better playing double bass" so in response to your assertion (and as Warrington proved time and time again) one can get reasonably close, probably to the extent that anyone listening would be satisfied with the results regardless of the type of instrument used.

 

[Geogio]

You have a naughty auto correct.

Well... oops, Wendell was a ladies man about town. Cool dude.

 

[thmsjordan]

I love the upright, but after watching Tommy Warrington with Buddy Rich I'm never left thinking "he'd have sounded better playing double bass" so in response to your assertion (and as Warrington proved time and time again) one can get reasonably close, probably to the extent that anyone listening would be satisfied with the results regardless of the type of instrument used.

HA !! I think Tom Warrington shares your opinion! He plays only upright these days as far as I am aware. He is still on the scene and I haven't seen any electric work outta the guy in years. He sounds wonderful on upright by the way.

 

[ToddB1963]

HA !! I think Tom Warrington shares your opinion! He plays only upright these days as far as I am aware. He is still on the scene and I haven't seen any electric work outta the guy in years. He sounds wonderful on upright by the way.

No doubt about it - he's a truly GREAT bass player.

 

[ClusterFlux]

I love the upright, but after watching Tommy Warrington with Buddy Rich I'm never left thinking "he'd have sounded better playing double bass"....

Unfortunately, I think you're conflating two meanings of "sounds better," namely musicality and timbre. I'm only discussing the latter in that last post.

To illustrate the difference: Warrington's performances excelled in the combos where he played, which is why Rich hired him. To the extent that Warrington played parts that he would not be able to play on DB, he would not "sound better" (i.e. improve his musicality) by playing on DB. However, when you hear higher fidelity recordings of his playing, it is much more obvious that he's playing a fretless EB. And while I would not have told Warrington to switch instruments, I have no qualms saying that the fretless "sounds worse" (in terms of timbre) in that context than a DB.



Obviously there are cases when an EB produces a "better" (more appropriate) timbre than a DB. There are also certainly people who prefer the sound of an EB over a DB. But to lots of people including yours truly, DB is where it's at for most jazz.

 

[ToddB1963]

Unfortunately, I think you're conflating two meanings of "sounds better," namely musicality and timbre. I'm only discussing the latter in that last post.

To illustrate the difference: Warrington's performances excelled in the combos where he played, which is why Rich hired him. To the extent that Warrington played parts that he would not be able to play on DB, he would not "sound better" (i.e. improve his musicality) by playing on DB. However, when you hear higher fidelity recordings of his playing, it is much more obvious that he's playing a fretless EB. And while I would not have told Warrington to switch instruments, I have no qualms saying that the fretless "sounds worse" (in terms of timbre) in that context than a DB.



Obviously there are cases when an EB produces a "better" (more appropriate) timbre than a DB. There are also certainly people who prefer the sound of an EB over a DB. But to lots of people including yours truly, DB is where it's at for most jazz.

You know what, you're absolutely correct - point well taken

 

[sean_on_bass]

A whole slew of disclaimers before I start:

1. I am not a jazz/upright bass elitist. I don't even have an upright (though I do want one).

2. I do think an upright sounds and works better for jazz music… Traditional jazz anyway, if you're talking funk-jazz or fusion kind of stuff than a BG may be more suitable/better.

3. This isn't a complaint, I'm just curious…

Toronto's Jazz Festival is currently running, along with some other jazz festivals around the world that I'm following on Twitter, and I've noticed that in a LOT of pictures the bassist is playing a fretted bass guitar roughly 90% of the time. This seems to be higher percentage than I recall from previous years but maybe I just didn't pay enough attention before.

Anyone have any theories why that is? Is it because BGs are easier to transport, and/or amplify? Is it because more bassists have a BG instead of a DB? Is a BG actually preferred for sonic/tonal reasons? Intonation? Etc.

I should also mention that I haven't heard a lot of these shows and don't know what they're actually playing. Sonically speaking, I can definitely see a BG being a better fit for really fast/busy music.

Again, I'm just kinda curious if this a trend that other people are noticing as well, and if so, if they have any theories why.

cheers.

Some of the reasons you listed are likely true, but it can also depend on the "flavor" of the jazz fest. Many have become fests of simply smooth jazz/RnB/funk, with not much in the dedicated jazz realm. You're gonna see alot of bass guitar at those ones.

 

[Ric Vice]

Things change and yet still they are the same. Regardless of the instrument Double Bass or Electric Bass if the music is beautiful or gets you up
on your feet then it's a success in my book. Just my take. Jazz is something different to everyone. I happen to be a afficanado who's invested years of listening,
study, and performance for modest compensation. I'm not complaining because it's an art. Evocations are lifetime per suits .