So Many Bass Guitars in Jazz?

[brianrost]

I don't think jazz electric bass guitar is anything really new

A fair amount of bass guitar used in mainstream jazz:

Lionel Hampton switched to using bass guitar in the early 1950s.

Monk Montgomery switched to playing bass guitar in the 1950s.

Buddy Rich switched to using bass guitar in the 1960s.

Steve Swallow switched to playing bass guitar in the late 1960s (he claims seeing Cream was the reason)

Sonny Rollins switched to using bass guitar in the late 1970s.

Is it because BGs are easier to transport, and/or amplify? Is a BG actually preferred for sonic/tonal reasons?

Yes and yes. I've been on bills where the other band's bassist was using a bass guitar because either he couldn't bring his upright or it had been damaged during the tour and was in the shop. Both Lionel Hampton and Sonny Rollins have stated they found the bass guitar provided a stronger beat.

 

[SteveCS]

...Youtube videos of people demoing double basses or fretless bass guitars can be painful to listen to - medium-tempo runs inadvertently demonstrate than whether any given note other than an open string is in tune is mostly a matter of luck.
...

Totally agree that many such videos make painful listening, but luck has very little to do with it. Barring the occasional mishap, playing in tune is a matter for technique and practice. Bad intonation only happens when either or both are in short supply. That's it.

 

[COYS]

Maybe it's just the places I go, but when I see a jazz combo live it's almost always an electric bass, often a 5 or 6 string electric bass. They do things a DB can't do, and these are people who live and work and drive and take the train or bus and squeeze onto a little stage that's in the real world, where electric basses generally work better in every way. That's why they were invented of course.

Nothing against the DB, but it seems in my area that you'd only see one when you have a group that's doing very traditional, period type stuff in period dress, etc.

You see them more in the bluegrass scene, which is so extremely traditional and exclusive of independent thinking in every way that you would get run out of town for not playing or looking exactly "right"

 

[ClusterFlux]

A whole slew of disclaimers before I start....

As already noted, the overwhelming majority of "jazz" festivals aren't actually jazz festivals. Very few acts on the bill for Toronto are jazz.

Anyway. Some types of jazz and jazz-adjacent music prefer EB, typically when music calls for a style or method of playing that is difficult to get on DB.

Here in NYC, almost every jazz combo uses DB. For example, Small's streams every performance. I've seen one, count it one, EB player out of hundreds -- if not thousands! -- of performances.
https://www.youtube.com/user/smallslive

However, NYC may be a special case due to an abundance of trained jazz DB players. My guess is that in other cities, it's harder to find DB players, thus they may be more amenable to EB even in a "traditional" jazz context.

 

[Ric Vice]

As a semi professional Double Bassist what I’ll say is I hate playing outside on a festival stage with a Double Bass.
Humidity and Hot weather effect the playability and sound of my Mirecourt DB. Sound engineers at festivals have to
mix on the fly because the bands switch out every hour. Moving your bass out to the stage through those massive
crowds is a PITA. Fortunately, I don’t have to tour with a bass because I’m local. Airlines are notoriously bad ad handling
basses.
Jazz today is a huge umbrella of Brazil, Cuban, African, Hip Hop, and other styles, many of which use Electric bass as
their primary instrument. Just my take of course

 

[iiipopes]

I started playing in school jazz bands on electric. About ten to twelve years ago, also knowing a double bass sounds better for traditional styles, I did purchase an inexpensive double bass that I took the time and bought a couple of tools to learn how to set it up myself. The first rehearsal I took it to the band sounded so much better with better style and articulation with the bloom of the double bass instead of the drive of an electric bass. I played it until that band disbanded, providing the "proper" foundation for it and a couple of other bands I played with. Alas, my hands don't like double bass anymore and I parted from it a couple of years ago.

 

[Altitude]

Subtopic: why do so many live music festivals brand themselves as "Jazz" which clearly are not.

We have one in Colorado, the Aspen Jazz Festival. It's a great festival actually, not super crowded, awesome weather, beautiful surrounding. But not a whiff of jazz; I've seen Train, Maroon 5, and the Revivalists there as headliners in the last few years for example.

 

[turf3]

Well, with regards to this one music festival, it's undoubtedly a combination of few groups playing the kind of music where the expectation is double-bass, and the challenges of traveling with a double-bass.

In my case, I primarily play upright and occasionally use electric when a load-in is just too ridiculous, or when I've got six hours of playing ahead of me and I don't think my hands will survive, or if I'm traveling halfway across the continent. Personally I don't think the electric, if set up for a deep blunt non-twangy tone, and if played using similar patterns to those used on DB, is a tonal problem. I think the problem is mostly that electric bass players, playing EB in a traditional context in place of upright, play the EB like a rock and roll or fusion electric bass player would play, not like Ray Brown or Wellman Braud or Jimmy Garrison would play. Of course the electric (even with flat wound strings and a piece of foam rubber shoved under the strings next to the bridge) doesn't sound JUST LIKE an upright, but if you play it the same, it will serve the same function. Frankly I think the "can't play electric in straightahead jazz" thing is more of a political stance than an artistic judgement.

 

[RobertAuCoin]

This is a great thread. Because I never (yet) learned to play double bass, I recently asked the same question to a great jazz sax player and band leader that I happen know.

He said that it’s nothing to do with tone or pitch, but rather, that an acoustic DB can provide a “wider” bass note than some electric BG players deliver.

In other words, the notes played on DB tend to ring out longer, which allows the bass notes more time in the mix to support the rest of band, harmonically speaking. That’s what makes DB sound better to him in a jazz tune — not the tonal difference. Therefore, an electric bass player in a jazz band should just focus their technique to make sure the notes don’t get cut off.

 

[ClusterFlux]

Subtopic: why do so many live music festivals brand themselves as "Jazz" which clearly are not.

• Some of them started as actual jazz festivals, and mutated over the years.

• There are a few famous festivals where jazz is a big part of the lineup (Newport, New Orleans, Montreux)

• It sounds classier, I guess?

 

[Hasty]

Frankly I think the "can't play electric in straightahead jazz" thing is more of a political stance than an artistic judgement.

I think this is pretty spot on.

Now I will qualify my statement by saying that I feel like few things in the world feel as good as driving a big band with a well set up and properly amplified double bass. The tone, the feeling, just moving all that air. It really is a different beast altogether. For me, no electric bass guitar (fretted, fretless, Godin, uke bass, insert whatever sort of instrument on a strap you want to here) really compares. However, I also appreciate the practicality of the electric bass. If it's outdoors, hot, and humid... I'm bringing an electric bass. I don't care if it's got frets or not... that will depend on my mood when I walk out the door that morning. The band will sound just fine, everyone will be able to solo over my changes, and we all get paid. I will also say it's easier to play straight ahead and bebop changes on an electric that it is to play funk on an upright. Just because I can do something doesn't mean I have to so I can suffer for my art.

 

[Danny O Danny]

This ^^^^^^

Of course the electric (even with flat wound strings and a piece of foam rubber shoved under the strings next to the bridge) doesn't sound JUST LIKE an upright, but if you play it the same, it will serve the same function.

I think of Chris Brubeck and his use of a Rickenbacker bass, which suites traditional jazz music (such as that written by his father) just fine.

 

[jim nolte]

Subtopic: why do so many live music festivals brand themselves as "Jazz" which clearly are not.

We have one in Colorado, the Aspen Jazz Festival. It's a great festival actually, not super crowded, awesome weather, beautiful surrounding. But not a whiff of jazz; I've seen Train, Maroon 5, and the Revivalists there as headliners in the last few years for example.

That goes back a long time though, mixture of styles, the first real big gig for the Jefferson Airplane was at the ‘66 Monterey Jazz Festival which still today features music which goes way beyond what would be normally called “Jazz”.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Remember, go back to the mid-late 60s, when a lot of these festivals started, and rock still gave off the whiff of being unsavory.

Today, for the most part, there are not a lot of pure jazz fans. I went to a show in a jazz club last night. The trio had a national reputation, with good national press. I went to the 9:00 show. Counting my group and the bartender and organizer, there were 13 people in the audience.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

To respond to the original set of questions, take a look at the roster of artists. I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of this particular group of bassists did NOT leave their double basses at home because bass guitar is easier to travel with...
Toronto’s International Jazz Festival - Celebrating 35 Years

I don't own a bass guitar, even though that's the instrument I (more or less) started on. I have always felt that life is too damn short not play the instrument you love, ANY time you get to play, adverse conditions or not. If the situation is so adverse that I actually have to worry about serious damage, to either instrument or health, that's a gig I don't need to be playing.

Look @Matthew_84, just because a festival calls itself a jazz festival, doesn't mean it is a jazz festival. You know, one that has just jazz and nothing else. And it is quite possible that you will see and hear players who play bass guitar. And it will be the only bass they play. Because that's what they hear as their voice in the music they are playing. And it will be somewhere on the jazz (music based on African rhythms as expressed in the American vernacular, with improvisation built on a loose harmonic framework that is open to changes in direction based on the players' intent and ability to communicate that intent0 spectrum.

 

[tbz]

In several years of hanging at the Baked Potato and/or hanging and playing as a regular at their old jam night, I think I saw one upright bass there. Out of maybe 100-150 shows?

Traditional jazz isn’t what most jazz musicians play now.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

In several years of hanging at the Baked Potato and/or hanging and playing as a regular at their old jam night, I think I saw one upright bass there. Out of maybe 100-150 shows?

Traditional jazz isn’t what most jazz musicians play now.

I haven't seen a giraffe around here, they must be extinct.

 

[salmon256]

I am not an Upright bass elitist at all, I got into Upright for jazz but ended up loving classical more. To my knowledge a major reason for the development of Bass guitar was to make it easier to transport. People today still live by this, especially in cities where public transport is more used at least here in the US. I heard old bebop tunes that were re-recorded today with bass guitar, obv someones spin on it. I thought it swing pretty well of course not everyone wants that sound. Also IMO for festivals, shows where the majority of viewers may just be there to see a show, maybe they are musicians or just very big jazz fan, I think most won't care unless some client or someone specifically has a show where they tell a BL to get an upright bassist. Even in my area with a decent amount of Upright Bassist there was lack of Upright bass teachers, hell even bass guitarist and I live in a music area I guess you can say. So it can also be just a lack of upright bassist or those who do not feel confident in their skills. I am not pro or expert this is just my thoughts.

 

[salmon256]

One of Adam Neely's older videos'. Yeah of course he doesn't play old jazz most of the time, but he lives in NYC which is know for jazz. He plays a lot of unique jazz gigs and he also share can just get by on Upright bass but not solo well. I think bebop jazz is love, but I truthfully from where I live have only really seen people play it for fun, HS bands, college study/classes, specific jazz bands in that theme of bebop. I know that's a lot and also somewhat a kaleidoscope view but that's my experience personally as of now. YMMV

 

[FrenchBassQC]

but the intonation issues are a real thing when playing with saxes etc

I know, one day they will accept it and work on resolving it...