So Many Bass Guitars in Jazz?

[fdeck]

My impression on that Buddy Rich video is that Warrington wasn't trying to emulate upright. He was just sounding damn good.

Oddly enough I think that the super strong preference for upright bass in jazz is kind of a new thing, as in, maybe the last couple decades. I got my first electric bass around 1977, to play in the school jazz band. I remember that most of the big-bands, most college bands that I knew about, and a lot of pro bands, were using electric bass. Nobody cared that I played electric. I was more concerned about whether to play fretted or fretless. Upright players were all learning electric, so they could spread out into the popular genres of the day.

The return to upright bass might be partly due to tradition, but I don't think completely. Maybe styles like fusion and funk have matured to the point where they require their own specialization. Maybe some styles, like jazz-rock, were cool for a while but didn't last.

Another thing is that the upright bass itself has changed. When I was a kid, upright bass was kind of a poor relation, and school string programs were being abandoned. Since then I think the bass itself has gained respectability thanks to bassists bringing it back to the foreground, developing better pedagogy and technique, and exploring new styles. And of course one can't overlook development of workable amplification, and steel / synthetic strings, which have changed how the bass is played.

I play both electric and upright, but admit that upright has become my main instrument, to the point where I trust my chops more on upright than electric, if I'm playing challenging material. I've also fallen in love with it. I love the sound that it makes in my living room. I love the bow. I love the physicality and sheer absurdity of it. I love the ever growing range of sounds and styles that have developed over the years.

The logistic issues aren't bad enough for me to switch. Yet. All of my gigging is local. All of the bassists who are ahead of me on call lists play both upright and electric, and choose to play upright when they can. Parking and load-ins are pretty tame in my town.

 

[Hasty]

To mimic the upright, IMHO, it's very important to keep the correct mindframe and play less notes, just like a DB player would do.

The BG scale make things easier to play and the end result with too many notes will sound unnatural (if the idea is to mimic a double bass).

Fewer notes? I drop notes on that thing like it’s going out of style.

 

[Ric Vice]

Bob Crankshaw moved to Electric when he started having back issues, he played the EB with the same style and fluency that he had played DB. When I heard him live with Milt Jackson and later Sonny Rollins he sounded every bit as wonderful on the Electric.

 

[brianrost]

Not sure I understand - you're saying that if your headliner is Pearl Jam, you'll sell more tickets if you call it a jazz festival?

No, it's the exact opposite...you want to run a jazz festival so you book a dozen jazz acts and then you also book Pearl Jam and Willie Nelson. That way you draw people who want to see the headliners and can expose them to jazz.

 

[Paul New]

My impression on that Buddy Rich video is that Warrington wasn't trying to emulate upright. He was just sounding damn good.

Oddly enough I think that the super strong preference for upright bass in jazz is kind of a new thing, as in, maybe the last couple decades. I got my first electric bass around 1977, to play in the school jazz band. I remember that most of the big-bands, most college bands that I knew about, and a lot of pro bands, were using electric bass. Nobody cared that I played electric. I was more concerned about whether to play fretted or fretless. Upright players were all learning electric, so they could spread out into the popular genres of the day.

The return to upright bass might be partly due to tradition, but I don't think completely. Maybe styles like fusion and funk have matured to the point where they require their own specialization. Maybe some styles, like jazz-rock, were cool for a while but didn't last.

Another thing is that the upright bass itself has changed. When I was a kid, upright bass was kind of a poor relation, and school string programs were being abandoned. Since then I think the bass itself has gained respectability thanks to bassists bringing it back to the foreground, developing better pedagogy and technique, and exploring new styles. And of course one can't overlook development of workable amplification, and steel / synthetic strings, which have changed how the bass is played.

I play both electric and upright, but admit that upright has become my main instrument, to the point where I trust my chops more on upright than electric, if I'm playing challenging material. I've also fallen in love with it. I love the sound that it makes in my living room. I love the bow. I love the physicality and sheer absurdity of it. I love the ever growing range of sounds and styles that have developed over the years.

The logistic issues aren't bad enough for me to switch. Yet. All of my gigging is local. All of the bassists who are ahead of me on call lists play both upright and electric, and choose to play upright when they can. Parking and load-ins are pretty tame in my town.

I think that there was a big switch in the early 80s when the big jazz labels started selling a new breed of "neo-traditionalists". Christian McBride, the Marsalis Bros, etc...Prior to that, the trend had been to electric.

I prefer double bass by far but like, OK love, both very much. Double bass is a better fit for me ergonomically. As for the guy who said that electric doesn't fit because of tuning issues, that's total hogwash. On my best day on upright I'm struggling with intonation-it's the nature of the beast.

 

[fdeck]

But the bassists had to come from somewhere. People don't get to the level of McBride overnight just due to an uptick in demand. Most of the top upright players in my locale started on classical lessons as kids, and have music degrees.

Indeed, it's just a matter of personal preference and exploration for me too. I'd love the electric bass as much, had I taken a different route 40 years ago.

A resurgence of traditional music might be a thing, like you say. That probably happens with all musical genres. Heck, people still attend classical concerts, 300 years later. There's a movement of playing Baroque music on period-correct instruments.

And electric bass has been around for long enough to have its own traditions.

 

[COYS]

A resurgence of traditional music might be a thing, like you say. That probably happens with all musical genres. Heck, people still attend classical concerts, 300 years later. There's a movement of playing Baroque music on period-correct instruments.

I wonder about this sometimes. The music that we hear called 'classical music' has already been curated. Much more music was certainly written and performed during these periods, music that was of varying quality. Over the centuries the lower quality stuff must be lost to time, and the things that were generally agreed to be the best ended up being preserved and continue to be performed.

There must have been a lot of crappy or derivative music back then too. Something was being performed by amateurs in taverns and such. But high art tends to get preserved, pop art usually doesn't survive its time.

 

[Hasty]

I think that there was a big switch in the early 80s when the big jazz labels started selling a new breed of "neo-traditionalists". Christian McBride, the Marsalis Bros, etc...Prior to that, the trend had been to electric.

I prefer double bass by far but like, OK love, both very much. Double bass is a better fit for me ergonomically. As for the guy who said that electric doesn't fit because of tuning issues, that's total hogwash. On my best day on upright I'm struggling with intonation-it's the nature of the beast.

Christian McBride didn’t hit the scene big until the early 90’s. I only know that because we’re the same age. I remember him talking about hitting the clubs and sitting in on a lot of jazz jams while he was in college.

 

[Hasty]

I wonder about this sometimes. The music that we hear called 'classical music' has already been curated. Much more music was certainly written and performed during these periods, music that was of varying quality. Over the centuries the lower quality stuff must be lost to time, and the things that were generally agreed to be the best ended up being preserved and continue to be performed.

There must have been a lot of crappy or derivative music back then too. Something was being performed by amateurs in taverns and such. But high art tends to get preserved, pop art usually doesn't survive its time.

That's a great comment.

In addition to classical there were so many regional types of folk music and many of them have survived or evolved into something new. I'm thinking Appalachian Folk, Irish Trad (which had a big resurgence in the mid 20th century), Southern and New Orleans styles of music. I'm betting some have remained intact, some were lost to history, while others evolved or influenced popular music today. I've listened to a few podcast of music history, but it's been a while. I always forget how fascinating the journey of music has been.

I found this in a google search. Not sure of the veracity of the source, but it sort of aligns with my thought process.

That's an excellent question, one with a complicated answer. The short version is: yes, the general European public heard the music of the composers we today consider the greats, but to varying extents based on place and time.

There are a few different points to consider:

• Prior to the time of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic aftermath, most career composers worked in the service of aristocratic or ecclesiastic patrons, and their music was not often widely heard outside privileged circles.
• But later on, by the maturity of Beethoven as a rough-sketched milestone, classical music became more accessible to the working classes, at least in large cities. There was a great proliferation of opera companies and civic musical societies which brought affordable theater and concert series to London, Paris, Vienna, Prague, and other major urban centers of the day.
• Remember that to ask what music people heard in this era is to ask what they heard live, as there were no recordings. Particularly with the advent of the piano as a domestic instrument, making music in the home became quite popular and created a sheet music industry. People could hear Schubert, Chopin, or Brahms whenever they wished as long as amateur musicians in the neighborhood could play or sing in their homes.
• For every major composer whose name and work we recognize today, there were many who were well-known in their own time but are now barely remembered. Their music often dominated that of their contemporaries who became more famous or respected in later years.
• Folk and popular music still reigned in the streets and taverns and inns -- Tchaikovsky was unlikely to have been heard while folks were out partying -- and, much like today, people were familiar with a handful of "hits" that were in fashion at any given time.

 

[Paul New]

Christian McBride didn’t hit the scene big until the early 90’s. I only know that because we’re the same age. I remember him talking about hitting the clubs and sitting in on a lot of jazz jams while he was in college.

Yeah, that's right. The first I heard by him was the album with Joe Henderson. I associate him with that Marsalis and company and that movement, which probably didn't really get going until the late 80s. I'm trying to remember...

 

[J_Bass]

He's 50yo.

In 1990 he was 18yo. Kind of difficult to had heard of him before that.

 

[Altitude]

No, it's the exact opposite...you want to run a jazz festival so you book a dozen jazz acts and then you also book Pearl Jam and Willie Nelson. That way you draw people who want to see the headliners and can expose them to jazz.

Maybe. There’s no jazz at all in the Aspen Snowmass Labor Day festival, just Chris Stapleton and Stevie Nicks. The same production group does do other events throughout the year that have some jazz content; I saw Christian McBride’s group headlining something last month. Maybe they’re trying to build affinity for their brand across events. On the whole it’s a very well produced upscale event, as you’d expect in Aspen.

 

[Hasty]

He's 50yo.

In 1990 he was 18yo. Kind of difficult to had heard of him before that.

Well... he and Joey D were both tearing things up in High School on a pretty regular basis so I wouldn't be surprised if those in the small circle of Jazz knew who they were as youngsters. I wanna say he was already regularly gigging with jazz greats at the age of 16 or 17.

 

[ClusterFlux]

I wonder about this sometimes. The music that we hear called 'classical music' has already been curated. Much more music was certainly written and performed during these periods, music that was of varying quality. Over the centuries the lower quality stuff must be lost to time, and the things that were generally agreed to be the best ended up being preserved and continue to be performed.

Or... not.

Many artists who are now classified as great, and firmly entrenched in various canons, were ignored for centuries. Few people cared about Bach for almost 100 years after his death; Bach's now-incredibly-famous-and-worshipped Cello Suites were treated as mere exercises until Pablo Casals recorded them in the 1930s. Caravaggio's reputation was in tatters for nearly 300 years, until interest revived in the 20th century. Classical composers who had the bad luck to be born female and/or non-white have been ignored for centuries, regardless of the quality of their work; hopefully they are on the verge of a revival.

I could be here all day naming incredible jazz and blues musicians who have fallen into obscurity. Not a lot of people care deeply about Bessie Smith, Jelly Roll Morton, Kid Ory, Bix Beiderbecke, Roy Eldridge, Bennie Goodman, and more. Duke Ellington's career was in the dumps until the Newport '56 recording hit (and by most measures, is still unknown by most people). A few weeks ago, I mentioned Miles Davis to a young woman; she had never heard of him.

Canonization itself often manipulates our evaluations of the quality of the work. If you played a piece by Salieri and told the listener it was by Mozart, they'd almost certainly wax ecstatic about Mozart's genius.

...high art tends to get preserved, pop art usually doesn't survive its time.

Yeah, that's not true either.

To start with, the distinction between so-called "high art" and "low art" is not only predominantly European, it is barely 300 years old. Artists and composers in Europe were seen as mere craftsmen, typically cranking out beautiful things for wealthy patrons and increasingly corrupt religious authorities.

To continue, a lot of the art and music we'd consider as "pop art" today does survive, and just like Bach and Caravaggio, occasionally gets a revival. One example is John Dowland, who wrote Renaissance dance music, was ignored for centuries, and had a revival in the 20th century. (Sting recorded an entire album of Dowland songs in 2006).

And of course, it's easy to find examples where the "high art" is ignored and the "pop art" revered. Or, compare Stockhausen to The Beatles. Whose music do you know best? Would you sit through an 8-hour documentary about the composition and recording of Gesang der Jünglinge?


The reality is that canons are seldom static. Reputations rise and fall over time, often for reasons completely unrelated to the quality of the work. And when canons are static, then the music stagnates, as we often see with "classical" music today.

 

[Paul New]

He's 50yo.

In 1990 he was 18yo. Kind of difficult to had heard of him before that.

He recorded the album with Joe Henderson, Lush Life, in`92, so not much later than that.

 

[J_Bass]

He recorded the album with Joe Henderson, Lush Life, in`92, so not much later than that.

I remember seeing a video hlon YouTube, in a TV show, where Miles was a guest.

A band was playing, and when they finished playing, the host told the trumpet player to ask a question to Miles. The trumpet player asked Miles what he thought about some electric trumpet that was a novelty, and Miles, being Miles absolutely destroyed the dude. And then he totally ignored him and turned to the DB player and the drummer and complimented them. It was McBride, a very young McBride. The drummer was someone now famous, too. I don't want to lie, but I think it was Brian Blade. Or it was the DB player and the pianist, I can't remember.

I tried to find the video, but couldn't. Anyone know what that? Please share, if you do.


Miles died in 1991, so the video must have been recorded in the late 80s.

 

[J_Bass]

He's 50yo.

In 1990 he was 18yo. Kind of difficult to had heard of him before that.

I meant internationally. I'm sure he was already known in the local circles.

 

[COYS]

That's a great comment.

In addition to classical there were so many regional types of folk music and many of them have survived or evolved into something new. I'm thinking Appalachian Folk, Irish Trad (which had a big resurgence in the mid 20th century), Southern and New Orleans styles of music. I'm betting some have remained intact, some were lost to history, while others evolved or influenced popular music today. I've listened to a few podcast of music history, but it's been a while. I always forget how fascinating the journey of music has been.

I found this in a google search. Not sure of the veracity of the source, but it sort of aligns with my thought process.

Yes, in the case of Bach or many others, you'd have needed to hear the music in church because that's who they wrote for.

I remember being amazed that Bach only performed Sleepers Wake once. Something like this, only once, as if it was common everyday fare? Granted, you couldn't expect that every great city's church or cathedral would have a Bach, but the standard was set high.

It was music set for the liturgical calendar, and he wrote in accordance with the majesty of his subject, so it makes sense that his music would be so grand.

But still, things like this, so extraordinary and only played a handful of times. Many probably lost to time after that.

 

[HelpImaRock]

I wonder about this sometimes. The music that we hear called 'classical music' has already been curated. Much more music was certainly written and performed during these periods, music that was of varying quality. Over the centuries the lower quality stuff must be lost to time, and the things that were generally agreed to be the best ended up being preserved and continue to be performed.

There must have been a lot of crappy or derivative music back then too. Something was being performed by amateurs in taverns and such. But high art tends to get preserved, pop art usually doesn't survive its time.

Disagree. The stuff that gets played is what sells tickets. This is why Star Wars night with the local symphony gets chosen over Mahler's 9th or Shostakovich's 7th. Same as it ever was, even in classical music.