Soft hitting drummer...AAAGH!!

[Guitalia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.. I'm a " finesse " drummer too & I too have been asked to play louder. It's because the guitars are too loud..

This. For every band with a drummer who is genuinely playing inappropriately quietly, there are a hundred in the "If we're too loud, you're too old" camp, a.k.a. "We rehearse in a closet-sized room, but we have to turn up to 11 to get our sound."

 

[chadds]

I've been accused of playing too softly. The guitarist who noticed knew it was because he was so loud that I was compensating to bring the whole band volume down out of respect for the venue. He noticed it on live recordings and began to be concious of his volume.

In another era we had a great drummer who played like Mitch Mitchell. He was so great! Yet he played softly and thought we played a little too loud. He was so polite too. We lost him out of our ignorance.

 

[MattZilla]

OP has been a member for a decade.

Nobody suspects that this was a joke post?

It’s posted in Live Sound despite mentioning that the only place at which they’re “trying to crank out rock” is their basement.


~~~

Supposing this is an honest post:

- maybe the drummer is timid
- maybe the drummer is being PasAgg about ridiculous volume in a small room where his ears are significantly closer to the speakers than the string players’ ears
- maybe the room is messing with the sounds and making his snare and cymbals beam at him far louder than the amps are getting their sounds at him
- we haven’t been told whose basement it is- maybe it’s the drummer’s and he’s already gotten complaints from the neighbors and is being PasAgg about trying to get the others to bring it down

The only real solution is to violently throw that Roland 100w combo straight into a landfill and get an SVT and four 215 cabs to stack horizontally on one another and never turn the gain or master below noon. He will learn to match the volume.

 

[Lo Ki]

Get a fridge cab and put it directly behind him when you rehearse.

 

[drumvsbass]

Because eventually if you push and twist hard enough, you’ll either round off the corners of the square peg, or widen the round hole enough to push it through.

This sounds like an advertisement for Preparation H.

 

[fakeneckplate'65]

Great thread. I am a drummer too (a much better drummer than bass player!) and it’s great to read all of your different perspectives. I have played classic rock, big band swing and Latin jazz, small combo jazz, country, 80’s top 40 pop/rock, and a variety of church worship in different settings ranging from “play as loud as you want” to “play as soft as possible.” I have played acoustic drum kits, electronic drum kits, and hybrid kits utilizing a mix of electronic and acoustic drums and cymbals. Lots of great suggestions in this thread! Here are a few suggestions I came up with while reading through the thread and thinking about ways your drummer might be able to make some improvements.

Good drum heads are the fastest and cheapest way to improve the tone and tuning range of even the least expensive kit. The stock drum heads that come with low to mid-priced kits are generally very thin and difficult to tune evenly around the rim. This results in a ringy, undefined tone that can make a drummer feel less confident and play too quietly, or too loudly in an effort to force the drums to sound better. I recommend Evans, Remo, or Aquarian, going with thick single ply or double ply. Evans are my favorite. Some drums come stock with “Remo U.T.” heads. These are cheap, thin heads made overseas and branded with the Remo name. Avoid or replace them!

Good cymbals are key to a great sounding kit and consistent, accurate volume control. When I was giving drum lessons, I would convince my students (and in most cases, their parents) to buy used cast cymbals made with B20 bronze (such as Zildjian A’s/K’s, or Sabian AA/AAX/HH/HHX, or higher end Paiste). I recommended medium weight hi hats and ride, and a thin to medium-thin crash. Cheap, thick stamped budget level cymbals make it hard to control volume, and they have overbearing, unmusical overtones coupled with an excessively long decay. In other words, they hurt your ears!

It’s crucial to strike the drum or cymbal with a solid hit and good rebound in the sweet spot, regardless of how hard or soft you hit. This is most important and most noticeable on the snare drum. That will determine how well the band can hear it, how much control you have of dynamics and overall volume, and how musical the tone will sound in the mix.

Most important of all, as many of you have emphasized, is tempo. I used to set a timer for my students, set the metronome at a certain bpm, and have them play a simple 4/4 beat with straight 8ths on the hi hat, kick on 1 and 3, and snare on 2 and 4. They would start off having to play for one minute without rushing or dragging, and when (not if) they messed up I’d reset the timer and they’d have to start over. When they were ready, I’d have them play a more complex pattern for a longer interval, and then vary the tempo on the metronome from much slower to much faster.

Long-winded post, sorry! Just some pointers off the top of my head to keep in mind for possible conversations with your drummer to hopefully lead to some improvement in volume, tone, and timekeeping.

I'm sure the drummer would not appreciate lessons or pointers from non drummers.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Just mic him and see how it goes. Trust me. The other extreme is even harder on everyone. Let technology level the playing field. I would rather have to mic a drummer than have to wear earplugs due to a ridiculously loud drummer. (And, sadly, most of them are.)

amen to that brother!!

 

[dkelley]

The idea that all jazz drummers play lightly is laughable though.

Totally, right? Loudest drummers I've worked with were jazz players, easily. They know how to cut through 15 VERY LOUD brass instruments and amplified keys, guitar, and bass and miked up solos.

I've worked with metal players who were very loud and metal players who were just medium loud. Execution is way more important than volume, since miking the drums, and how the drums are tuned and muted makes a huge difference to the final tone, not to mention the choice of drums themselves.

 

[Ekulati]

I'm sure the drummer would not appreciate lessons or pointers from non drummers.

As a musician, this doesn't matter. I've been schooled and graciously absorbed tips, pointers, and occasional butt kickings from experienced pro musicians who don't play my instrument. They all helped make me a better musician. Only an idiot would bristle at taking guidance from someone not playing the same instrument.

 

[Guitalia]

Thank you for sharing this clip including the brilliant saxophonist Dick Heckstall-Smith.

As you correctly state, it was a terrible film and does nothing whatever for Dick himself, or probably anybody else that was involved.

However, for me it brought back happy memories, shared at the console, beside the stage and jokes and laughter in the band room with Dick and members of John Hiseman’s Coliseum.

John was another great drummer I have been so humbly privileged to be involved with, a true gentleman of the music business, with my Promoter friend who organised and promoted so many tremendous U.K. concerts.

Dick could do a tenor sax solo for 10 minutes, then play a soprano sax for another five, then play the tenor and soprano simultaneously for another five minutes then another five minutes of tenor, then another five with both instruments again. All scintillatingly fast, complex, interesting, goose bump inducing, hair standing on end, edge of seat performing! Quite mind blowing,


As this is a Live Sound Forum, I recall Coliseum bought a huge, early Dynachord P.A. with lots of High Frequency hiss present in the quiet, when no when else was in the Concert Hall. Unusual for the era.

In regard to "Gonks Go Beat", I recall Bobby Graham reflecting that Big Jim Sullivan and Jimmy Page (typical combination) were amongst the large number of musicians on the Film Score set, as there was a lot of incidental music.

Jimmy Page called it “wallpaper music”, not what he was about at all. Afterward Bob said to “little” Jim, “you looked like you were playing a storm up, how did you get on with it?” (knowing little Jim didn’t read at all, disliking that type of situation).

He replied “I turned my amp off Bob.” (Presumably knowing that if the fault was uncovered, which it probably wouldn’t be given the number of players and available tracks, it would probably be laid at the assistant engineer’s door). Completely true story. You couldn’t make this stuff up!



Colosseum 'Walking In The Park' from 'The Valentyne Suite' 1994 - YouTube

Another truly great drummer who did many sessions including the Theme from The South Bank Show, composed by Andrew!

Very subtle drumming, everything I was writing about earlier.

South Bank Show Intros - Improved Audio! - YouTube

Remembering Jon Hiseman - YouTube

Thanks so much for the reminiscences and the links. Dick Heckstall-Smith was a force of nature. I recommend his autobiography, which I read a few years ago. In addition to his own insights into his music, it provides a glimpse into the hard life of a British jazz musician in the rock 'n' roll/progressive rock era.

Here's a clip for you that shows all of us that jazz drummers like Jon Hiseman can be finesse players and loud and driving all at the same time!

[Warning: Free Jazz ahead!]

 

[walterw]

That comment sounds like you're insinuating that people can't grow as a musician past a certain age.

they can, maybe? eventually? in the meantime there are gigs to play and that person isn't the right fit for the band

besides, that growth probably won't be influenced by a nagging bandmate, and may not even be in the musical direction that nagging bandmate wishes it to be. this drummer's "growth" could be entirely towards vintage jazz to where he won't play with anything besides brushes in a year and he never plays rock music again

if a player's style doesn't fit the band and if after prompting and suggesting it continues to not fit the band then it's best to assume that player is unable or unwilling to change, the only choice then becomes whether to take it or leave it.

 

[fourstringdrums]

they can, maybe? eventually? in the meantime there are gigs to play and that person isn't the right fit for the band

besides, that growth probably won't be influenced by a nagging bandmate, and may not even be in the musical direction that nagging bandmate wishes it to be. this drummer's "growth" could be entirely towards vintage jazz to where he won't play with anything besides brushes in a year and he never plays rock music again

if a player's style doesn't fit the band and if after prompting and suggesting it continues to not fit the band then it's best to assume that player is unable or unwilling to change, the only choice then becomes whether to take it or leave it.

I wasn't quoting the OP's immediate situation. The person I quoted basically said that who a drummer is past a certain age is all they'll be.

 

[walterw]

I wasn't quoting the OP's immediate situation. The person I quoted basically said that who a drummer is past a certain age is all they'll be.

that was me

i didn't mean that it was all they would ever be, i mostly meant that they would be who they were and a bandmate wasn't gonna change it by nagging them to be something else

the answer to "how can i get bandmate X to stop doing the thing he always does and do a totally different thing?" is usually "you can't"

 

[fourstringdrums]

that was me

i didn't mean that it was all they would ever be, i mostly meant that they would be who they were and a bandmate wasn't gonna change it by nagging them to be something else

the answer to "how can i get bandmate X to stop doing the thing he always does and do a totally different thing?" is usually "you can't"

Oh sorry. I understand what you mean now. Yes if someone isn't a good fit they never will be.

 

[honeydorick]

A dynamic drummer is a rarity these days.Most drummers today are taught to use 2b sticks, hit hard, and ride the crash cymbal.I am a dynamic drummer turned bass player.I could play hard if i had to ,but prefered not ruining my 7A sticks and drum heads right away.inside we would turn up if we needed to.But outside I had to hit harder to project myself.I was never miked back in those days.Same with my bass.I adjust to what ever level we need to play at.However, Im not a metal player.I could only imagin they probably need to be really hard on the drums.All depends or what type of music you play.

 

[bassdrummer]

Even with just an overhead mic and a kick drum mic, you can get surprisingly good results. We record and livestream our church service each week and only use an Audio-Technica AT2020 condenser overhead and an Audix D6 inside the kick on a folded towel. Picks up the whole kit with a natural balance and excellent detail; and we stopped close-miking the snare as there was no need for it. Here’s a pic of the AT2020:

We use a K&M extra tall boom stand and position the mic above the drummer, over the snare. Works great!

 

[Lo Ki]

Totally, right? Loudest drummers I've worked with were jazz players, easily. They know how to cut through 15 VERY LOUD brass instruments and amplified keys, guitar, and bass and miked up solos.

I've worked with metal players who were very loud and metal players who were just medium loud. Execution is way more important than volume, since miking the drums, and how the drums are tuned and muted makes a huge difference to the final tone, not to mention the choice of drums themselves.

Buddy Rich could've played in any Metal band....or at least ours!

 

[Anthony Buckeridge]

Quote: “just an overhead mic and a kick drum mic”


Unfortunately, I can remember when only a single overhead mic was common practise in the music industry.

In fact, there is a picture somewhere of my old band with the drummer using a single omni-directional small diaphragm mic, smack in the middle overhead, picking up the entire kit.

As you may be aware, small diaphragm mics of quality are most accurate in reproduction. This is purely a consequence of diaphragm size, according to Neumann, who know about mics.

But there is another way to mic a drum kit up with a single mic that I learnt from a greatly admired friend and mentor of old, from whom I have had the privilege of learning a very great deal indeed.

It is to place the overhead mic, over the shoulder of the drummer, not too far (but not too close) from his ear pointing angled towards the kit. What this provides is a fulsome sonic picture of the entire drum kits sound, but as experienced directly by the drummer.

At least, in one of his ears!


It works well and is well worth being aware of and remembering as this mic technique has proved extremely useful in many taxingly difficult situations.


Allow me the privilege of humbly submitting to you just one.

At times, when recording highly gifted virtuoso soloists, situations have arisen that defy explanation. Such musical talent can quite understandably be highly demanding and critical of not only their own performance, but the performance of everyone and everything else involved.

Listening to the playback of their recorded performance, utilising ideal recording equipment, the best possible mic choices, perfectly positioned in the most suitable sweet spot, the soloists involved can none the less feel that there is something wrong?


The problem is, that they are unable to accurately describe the issue or diagnose what is concerning them. No one else has any idea of what the problem could be either.

What I have invariably found, is that whilst those that record them, do as those that who would listen to their performance live; positioning the mic in a manner that ideally pickups up their forward projecting instrument, on axis.

The musician however, simply never hears their instrument or playing, from precisely that listener perspective. They hear the tonality of their instrument, off axis to its intended direction of projection. That fact alone, totally alters their personal perception of their instrument’s timbre.

That’s actually the problem that needs to be dealt with.


What to do?

Well, in my experience in such situations, adding an additional over the shoulder mic, that similar to the drummer’s mic I wrote of above, picks up a fulsome picture of the sound of the instrument, but from the players perspective.

Adding some of that specific players ear tonality mixed with the typically placed sweet spot mic or mics, suddenly the timbre of their instrument miraculously becomes akin to what they are used to, and the player becomes a beam of joy, a veritable beacon of light and positivity.

There are many problems in recording situations that can be successfully resolved by this method or subtly adjusting the relationship of the mic or the performer to the mic, so that they are somewhat off axis to one another. The engineer I learnt this from, is actually the first person known to ever have used a mic on the Bass Drum of a drum kit in the entire history of music recording.


Thank you for the important job you are doing recording church services for people that are currently unable to attend, because of covid.

I’m sure the effect of your work, often unsung, is greatly appreciated and a blessing to many!

 

[dkelley]

Buddy Rich could've played in any Metal band....or at least ours!

Totally right?

 

[Guitalia]

Quote: “just an overhead mic and a kick drum mic”


Unfortunately, I can remember when only a single overhead mic was common practise in the music industry.

In fact, there is a picture somewhere of my old band with the drummer using a single omni-directional small diaphragm mic, smack in the middle overhead, picking up the entire kit.

As you may be aware, small diaphragm mics of quality are most accurate in reproduction. This is purely a consequence of diaphragm size, according to Neumann, who know about mics.

But there is another way to mic a drum kit up with a single mic that I learnt from a greatly admired friend and mentor of old, from whom I have had the privilege of learning a very great deal indeed.

It is to place the overhead mic, over the shoulder of the drummer, not too far (but not too close) from his ear pointing angled towards the kit. What this provides is a fulsome sonic picture of the entire drum kits sound, but as experienced directly by the drummer.

At least, in one of his ears!


It works well and is well worth being aware of and remembering as this mic technique has proved extremely useful in many taxingly difficult situations.


Allow me the privilege of humbly submitting to you just one.

At times, when recording highly gifted virtuoso soloists, situations have arisen that defy explanation. Such musical talent can quite understandably be highly demanding and critical of not only their own performance, but the performance of everyone and everything else involved.

Listening to the playback of their recorded performance, utilising ideal recording equipment, the best possible mic choices, perfectly positioned in the most suitable sweet spot, the soloists involved can none the less feel that there is something wrong?


The problem is, that they are unable to accurately describe the issue or diagnose what is concerning them. No one else has any idea of what the problem could be either.

What I have invariably found, is that whilst those that record them, do as those that who would listen to their performance live; positioning the mic in a manner that ideally pickups up their forward projecting instrument, on axis.

The musician however, simply never hears their instrument or playing, from precisely that listener perspective. They hear the tonality of their instrument, off axis to its intended direction of projection. That fact alone, totally alters their personal perception of their instrument’s timbre.

That’s actually the problem that needs to be dealt with.


What to do?

Well, in my experience in such situations, adding an additional over the shoulder mic, that similar to the drummer’s mic I wrote of above, picks up a fulsome picture of the sound of the instrument, but from the players perspective.

Adding some of that specific players ear tonality mixed with the typically placed sweet spot mic or mics, suddenly the timbre of their instrument miraculously becomes akin to what they are used to, and the player becomes a beam of joy, a veritable beacon of light and positivity.

There are many problems in recording situations that can be successfully resolved by this method or subtly adjusting the relationship of the mic or the performer to the mic, so that they are somewhat off axis to one another. The engineer I learnt this from, is actually the first person known to ever have used a mic on the Bass Drum of a drum kit in the entire history of music recording.


Thank you for the important job you are doing recording church services for people that are currently unable to attend, because of covid.

I’m sure the effect of your work, often unsung, is greatly appreciated and a blessing to many!

Anthony, if you have a website or blog where more of your reminiscences of your career are provided, please give us a link. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your contributions fascinating.

On the topic of micing drums with a single microphone, here's an example that came immediately to mind: the (first?) appearance of the Young Rascals on the Ed Sullivan show. The positioning of the single mic on the drums can be seen best at 1:17 in the video below. I think the balance is amazingly good; in fact, I'm not absolutely sure that there's no mic on the bass drum, although the lack of a bass guitar probably accounts for the clarity of the bass drum in the recording. That, and the fact that he's using a 24" one.

The drummer, Dino Danelli, was a hard hitter, as can be seen and heard, but he came up as a jazz drummer, playing for Lionel Hampton's big band as a teenager. Buddy Rich's famous quote: "All rock drummers suck except for Dino Danelli."



Edit: found an example of the same band, this time with the single drum mic positioned over and behind the drummer's left shoulder. Bass drum isn't as audible as in the first example. I imagine Dino was happier with his sound in the first recording than in the second.