• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Solid state/class d vs tube amps

Modelling and simulation only work if the cause/effect relationships and their interactive supporting parameters and elements are well understood

How can the software be written if those are not already known ?

How many software developers have that level of understanding and experience ?

From where do they source their design data ?

There are several approaches to modeling,emulation, simulation

One approach uses tools like SPICE. It can start with an actual schematic of the amplifier. Spice simulates the component. Each component is measured separately and a component model put in a library. These are checked against each other. Make a circuit with physical circuits and run a wave through it. Make a circuit in spice and run a wave through it. These measure the same, and can null each other out. At different levels. At overload. Artifacts like hiss are often taken out to improve the model over the actual hardware. IK Multimedia copied the schematic of an Ampeg amp and during trying out the model it "Shutdown" when they cranked it. It turns out to be a design flaw in the Amp. In real life many designers are going to go to Spice or other software tools during their design. They can test before building a prototype.

Got back to the old way. A book with a bunch of reference pages, and look up tables. Spend a lot of time thinking through each part of the circuit stages. Figure out where you can insert points to measure the prototype to assure it is working as designed. Build a prototype, measure and test it, repeat each time you have it wrong. Build 20 prototypes because components have plus or minus 15-20% variances in some cases. If one in 20 breaks go back and design some more. It takes the same smarts either way. It just that much of the process is enhanced with software.

The designers are hardware engineers. After the complete amp is modeled they are compared level for level, by both ear and lab instruments. Some of the ear testing is done by musicians who have a different perspective on how it sounds.

Another copy/clone/profile method takes the actual output and does analysis. Then duplicates, tests, to figure out how to get the same signal. At many levels. This blackbox approach is what is convincing a lot of musicians to use modeling. It can copy their own amp and a level they like to play at. Their own amp may be flawed, and their profile of this amp is flawed, but they can only believe modeling if it can copy their own flawed amp. Later though they can try a golden model and hear what the original designer intended with the actual amp.

A lot of people here are not software and computer systems experts. Yet they are using technology to "talk" around the world. Take a little of that skill and try a demo of a modeler. It's not expensive. It does take some smarts to pick low latency software drivers, but it simple enough that must musician can figure it out. Some will fail with modeling, but it's usually something they're not following in how to use it. The end up forever blaming the modeling for not working.

As far as amp speaker interaction.
There is a feedback path from the speaker back through the amp, but the speaker is mostly a voltage follower. There isn't much interaction. Some even claim that zero feedback sounds the best.

The full feedback is from the musicians ear back through the whole rig. Things can be changed and the musician's brain makes adjustments. Which may include turning a knob. The real interaction is from the musician. Even if they're a DJ playing records.
 



But when you hook up a speaker to an amplifier the load becomes non-linear - because the load impedance changes with frequency - so the power gain of the amplifier becomes non-linear and the system becomes non-linear. The whole ball game changes.
As the speakers impedance is non-linear its obvious the speaker "sucks" different power out of the amplifier cause current draw differs versus frequency.
The infamous "killer" Kappa 8A is an 8 Ohm cabinet but suitable to kill "poor designed" 4 Ohm HiFi amplifiers if current draw exceeds SOA at lowish 0.8 Ohm impedance minimum of the "Killer Kappa"

Lots of folks "believe" in the opinion an amplifier powers a speaker with power.
Yet the "power" consideration must be a little bit corrected. In first instance the speaker follows voltage swing just to move foreward and back, and the impedance tells nothing but how much of power the speaker "sucks" from the amplifier for same (steady state) excursion number of cone movement.

Of course at the lowish side of the spectrum the consideration becomes more complex cause (for ported cabs) the Helmholtz resonator helps to improve radiation impedance (at the lows) which keeps cone excursion small while impedance curve shows a "second" noticable valey.
This characteristic looks like an contradiction but, its nothing but a matter of some (basic) physic laws (and also a matter of some math just to explain the phenomenon).
 
Last edited:
Fortunatelly we talk about natural science which is provable science. I think forum discissions must become more confusing with subjects that belong to human sciencies like economics or theory of religion which (naturally) lack of any traceable laws of nature.

The big fortune with natural science is that we can prove any things to be true by math rather than think them true by mind thinking
 
Last edited:
Question: I'm looking to build a rig for the first time (I'm primarily a drummer), and I've got a few things I want to look at, but I'm unsure of what's best for my style. I intend to play aggressively and have a good presence in a mix with good mids, but I also enjoy 70's music and stoner style playing too. My assumption is that having an amp like a tube SVT, or SVT II Pro would really work with what I'm going for, but any help would be great!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BadExample
Question: I'm looking to build a rig for the first time (I'm primarily a drummer), and I've got a few things I want to look at, but I'm unsure of what's best for my style. I intend to play aggressively and have a good presence in a mix with good mids, but I also enjoy 70's music and stoner style playing too. My assumption is that having an amp like a tube SVT, or SVT II Pro would really work with what I'm going for, but any help would be great!
Not necessarily so. Personally, I'd prefer the ability to have a Genzler 800 watt head, with a couple of cabinets. Cabinets like Dual 10 inch or Dual 12 inch (8 ohms each- with crossovers and tweeters) that can be stacked to do what and when you want. My preference are Schroeder Cabs, super efficient, great frequency range, lite weight, loud and proud.

The Genzler 800 is Class "D" with a very wide tonal adjust, seems to have a preamp in it that resembles a tube sound, or even solid state cleanliness. And all of that weighs a fraction of an Ampeg system.

But if you just love the old school stuff, that weighs a ton, be my guest. Just remember technology has come a long way in 5 decades. Do a Wiki search, the original SVT was a 1969 design. Most folks don't even realize that. Hell Apple computers weren't out until 1976. The electronic world has made leaps and bounds since the design of the SVT. But no one want to talk about that. I can never understand the thinking.
 
Question: I'm looking to build a rig for the first time (I'm primarily a drummer), and I've got a few things I want to look at, but I'm unsure of what's best for my style. I intend to play aggressively and have a good presence in a mix with good mids, but I also enjoy 70's music and stoner style playing too. My assumption is that having an amp like a tube SVT, or SVT II Pro would really work with what I'm going for, but any help would be great!
Welcome here!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ezcreepin
....Falling amplifier power, resulting in falling "loudness", is a real world issue for bass. - The issue for bass players is not why it happens but that it does....
....Please post verifiable details of an affordable... ...amplifier/speaker/cabinet set suitable for bass players, which does not suffer LF rolloff in the bass instrument range.

If a bass player wants solid bass down into the LF range, what specs should he/she look for when looking for a new amp and speaker set ? - Is it possible to select a best fit amp and speaker set by specification or description, rather than [only by] a listening test ?

That's Talking Bass.
~
[Just catching up with the amp threads now...]

Notwithstanding mentioning all of the supporting technical details, important as I am sure that they are, the last part of my quote of you, which I highlighted above, was pretty much the thrust of my own recent thread, asking whether RMS watts have become passe, and as a consequence my followup question as to which bass guitar amplifier heads still can be judged accurately by their published output power specs, though in MY case, asking mainly in order to narrow the field for a final listening test, as I do not live near enough to a large pop base such as Toronto, unlike some 'lucky' folks who can just catch the streetcar or subway to visit 'amp city'.
~
 
Last edited:
Not necessarily so. Personally, I'd prefer the ability to have a Genzler 800 watt head, with a couple of cabinets. Cabinets like Dual 10 inch or Dual 12 inch (8 ohms each- with crossovers and tweeters) that can be stacked to do what and when you want. My preference are Schroeder Cabs, super efficient, great frequency range, lite weight, loud and proud.

The Genzler 800 is Class "D" with a very wide tonal adjust, seems to have a preamp in it that resembles a tube sound, or even solid state cleanliness. And all of that weighs a fraction of an Ampeg system.

But if you just love the old school stuff, that weighs a ton, be my guest. Just remember technology has come a long way in 5 decades. Do a Wiki search, the original SVT was a 1969 design. Most folks don't even realize that. Hell Apple computers weren't out until 1976. The electronic world has made leaps and bounds since the design of the SVT. But no one want to talk about that. I can never understand the thinking.
Thanks for the help! I'm perfectly fine with a class D amp, though people who use SVTs swear that there's a sonic difference (I wouldnt know, I've never played one). Someone recommended to someone else using a SVT II pro or even a SVT 4 pro so some crunchy goodness, but others have said that a tonehammer, streamliner, and even the traynor YBA 200 would be good options, granted the YBA is an all tube amp. I've been wanting to get a sansamp for any rig that I get, but haven't found a perfect setup that doesn't break the bank.

I love Rex Brown's tone and sound (Geddy Lee too, nothing new there), so here's a vid of the tone I want to be able to achieve if I want, as well with some room to grow and add depth, heaviness, etc.

PS: I'm going to look at some videos of your suggestion so thanks again!
 
Thanks for the help! I'm perfectly fine with a class D amp, though people who use SVTs swear that there's a sonic difference (I wouldnt know, I've never played one). Someone recommended to someone else using a SVT II pro or even a SVT 4 pro so some crunchy goodness, but others have said that a tonehammer, streamliner, and even the traynor YBA 200 would be good options, granted the YBA is an all tube amp. I've been wanting to get a sansamp for any rig that I get, but haven't found a perfect setup that doesn't break the bank.

I love Rex Brown's tone and sound (Geddy Lee too, nothing new there), so here's a vid of the tone I want to be able to achieve if I want, as well with some room to grow and add depth, heaviness, etc.

PS: I'm going to look at some videos of your suggestion so thanks again!

I second the Streamliner. I have an Ampeg V4B that never leaves the rehearsal space anymore cuz that tiny freakin SL gets me as close as I need on gigs or practice seshes elsewhere. Honestly, I use my Shuttle more... to my ear it can get 80% close to the SL, and it cuts thru 2 guitars better. The SL has 3 tubes in it, & the Shuttle has 1 in the pre. Both get used with a GB Neo 212x ... really light yet punchy as hell setup :thumbsup: Good luck in your search
 
I second the Streamliner. I have an Ampeg V4B that never leaves the rehearsal space anymore cuz that tiny freakin SL gets me as close as I need on gigs or practice seshes elsewhere. Honestly, I use my Shuttle more... to my ear it can get 80% close to the SL, and it cuts thru 2 guitars better. The SL has 3 tubes in it, & the Shuttle has 1 in the pre. Both get used with a GB Neo 212x ... really light yet punchy as hell setup :thumbsup: Good luck in your search

Love my Streamliner, too - definitely one of my "keeper" amps!!! I gigged mine a lot with one or two PH115 cabs, or a PH210 - but have gotten excellent results with it thru a Subway 115, too... I have a Shuttlemax 12.0 that has worked extremely well with either a PH215 or a PH210 stacked on top of a PH115...
 
I second the Streamliner. I have an Ampeg V4B that never leaves the rehearsal space anymore cuz that tiny freakin SL gets me as close as I need on gigs or practice seshes elsewhere. Honestly, I use my Shuttle more... to my ear it can get 80% close to the SL, and it cuts thru 2 guitars better. The SL has 3 tubes in it, & the Shuttle has 1 in the pre. Both get used with a GB Neo 212x ... really light yet punchy as hell setup :thumbsup: Good luck in your search
Used a Genz Shuttle 6 for a few years in the studio, with an Aguilar 12" (Loaded with a Beyma 12) and a dual 10" B&C driver Carvin Cabinet. It was killer, gave tones as close to any Ampeg Icebox rig, and maybe even better.
Once I sprang for the new Genzler MG800, I was floored on the improvements. (Technology has come a long way) That little Class D amp can do anything ) And even set up for a 2.67 ohm.load. And paired with some badass cabs, be an amp killer.

I've had other bass players prefer my set up on several shared stages. And they were quite frankly blown away with my set up: The Genzler MG800, and Schroeder 12-12L (Corner / Single Fold horn version), and a Schroeder 12 PL. These folks had Markbass amps, Ampeg amps, and GK amps to choose from, but go straight to my rig.

And the whole rig weighs only a fraction of an SVT Refrigerator. But it is class and can be put onto any stage with little effort. And even used with only one cab. Keep it simple, and don't break your back moving it, is what I say these days.
175.JPG
 
....Once I sprang for the new Genzler MG800, I was floored on the improvements. (Technology has come a long way.) That little Class D amp can do anything. And even set up for a 2.67 ohm load. And paired with some badass cabs, be an amp killer.

I've had other bass players prefer my set up on several shared stages. And they were quite frankly blown away with my set up: The Genzler MG800, and Schroeder 12-12L (Corner / Single Fold horn version), and a Schroeder 12 PL. These folks had Markbass amps, Ampeg amps, and GK amps to choose from, but go straight to my rig.

And the whole rig weighs only a fraction of an SVT Refrigerator. But it is class and can be put onto any stage with little effort. And even used with only one cab.
Keep it simple, and don't break your back moving it, is what I say these days.
View attachment 2923741
~
In One Word : drool

Followup : That said, it would cost more than my current minivan did. :(
~
 
Last edited:
~
In One Word : drool

Followup : That said, it would cost more than my current minivan did. :(
~
Nope... Genzler 800 in the range of $800,

My Schroeders were in the neighborhood of $750 for the single 12 PL, to $900 for the dual 12-!2 L cab. Just need to contact Jorg Schroeder. So no need to sell a kidney. LOL.
 
Nope... Genzler 800 in the range of $800,

My Schroeders were in the neighborhood of $750 for the single 12 PL, to $900 for the dual 12-!2 L cab. Just need to contact Jorg Schroeder. So no need to sell a kidney. LOL.
~
800 + 750 + 900 = $2,450 USD ~x 1.30 = $3,185 CAD, plus Shipping and Brokerage fees from USA to Canada, plus Sales Tax in Ontario Canada is 13%, plus whatever duty might be charged at the border.

OR, if any store up here even sells these gems, their price would have to consider all of those factors, and they would charge us Canadians whatever they could....

My vehicle was about $2,800 CAD after all taxes and gummint fees were added.

BTW, up here, we even pay that pesky 13% sales tax on 2nd hand private vehicle sales when transferring ownership papers.

My original comments stand, including the salivation about the gorgeous rig. drool

So on another tangent, that lower cab has TWO speakers in it ?

What's the Caramilk secret ?
~
 
Last edited: