• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Some just don't get it

#41
It can happen with small amps too.

Played a gig last weekend where the guitarist had a 30-watt (if even) Mesa 1x12 combo aimed straight out into the room and was still overpowering the mix even with the rest of the band going through a full P.A. and the guitarist pulled completely out of FOH. This was a SMALL (100 people max) wedding reception in a "live" room... completely uncalled for and very frustrating.

Know your audience. Know the room. Choose (and set) your "tools" accordingly. Seems so simple, yet so hard for so many to "get".
 
#42
Jim Nazium said:
IMHO, it's about using gear (and the volume knobs on said gear) in a way that's appropriate to the venue. All the great players you listed used big amps and played loud, certainly. But it's one thing to use a 100W 4x12 when you're playing in a hockey arena that seats 5,000 people; it's quite another to use that rig (and crank it) in a bar that's halfway full to its 250 person capacity.

People want to use the same equipment the pros use, but they aren't alway realstic about the situations where they actually play.
Click to expand...

check out "Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scotts", small intimate club, probably no more than 250 seats.
he's using at least two Marshall halfstacks, Tal Wilkenfeld has her big EBS bass stack and Vinnie is hammering the drums full bore.
it's about knowing how to use dynamics and volume to your advantage, there's "good loud" and "bad loud".
is anyone going to laugh at Jeff and Tal for using the rigs they did in that room.
there's no rules, you're either a great player and can play to the room or the moment, or you can't.
 
#43
Hi.

BluesMan845 said:
so, just what would your approach be to try and convince guitarist and possibly even a drummer ( through e-kits ) to go this route?
Click to expand...

First of all, I'm a hobbyist, not a pro, if I was a pro I probably would know the answer. Or not... ;).
Secondly, for the band I'm in now I use my Fame BVH300 tube amp paired with 2 EV TL505 cabs (18"), mainly because of a lack of good monitors, so not exactly ampless ATM.



That out of the way, I've been a "convert" for about 15 years and I haven't been able to convince anyone yet :(.
The soundmen love me for it though.

One main reason IME for not to go ampless is the lack of good monitors and monitor feeds that can deliver a dedicated mix for everyone, with enough clarity and SPL to make it the same as a backline would.
IEM's is one solution, but do bring a whole new set of problems with them.

Another reason is the ignorant need to use the rig people paid dearly for, but for the drummers, the question is more complex.

Decent el. drums (and especially el. cymbals) do not exist in sub 2K€ price range, and the power requirement for the PA becomes insane very quickly.
In our experiment, it took an 18" Eminence kilomax in a ~200l cab and about 1KW amp to get the same kind of a thump from an el. BD as it did with and acoustical BD.

That same 2K€ will buy a very nice acoustical kit that will carry any small room, and with a bit of amplification on the BD, a medium room.

So, IME/IMO going ampless can never be an individual desicion/choice, it has to be collective one.

Regards
Sam
 
#44
T-Bird said:
Hi.



First of all, I'm a hobbyist, not a pro, if I was a pro I probably would know the answer. Or not... ;).
Secondly, for the band I'm in now I use my Fame BVH300 tube amp paired with 2 EV TL505 cabs (18"), mainly because of a lack of good monitors, so not exactly ampless ATM.



That out of the way, I've been a "convert" for about 15 years and I haven't been able to convince anyone yet :(.
The soundmen love me for it though.

One main reason IME for not to go ampless is the lack of good monitors and monitor feeds that can deliver a dedicated mix for everyone, with enough clarity and SPL to make it the same as a backline would.
IEM's is one solution, but do bring a whole new set of problems with them.

Another reason is the ignorant need to use the rig people paid dearly for, but for the drummers, the question is more complex.

Decent el. drums (and especially el. cymbals) do not exist in sub 2K€ price range, and the power requirement for the PA becomes insane very quickly.
In our experiment, it took an 18" Eminence kilomax in a ~200l cab and about 1KW amp to get the same kind of a thump from an el. BD as it did with and acoustical BD.

That same 2K€ will buy a very nice acoustical kit that will carry any small room, and with a bit of amplification on the BD, a medium room.

So, IME/IMO going ampless can never be an individual desicion/choice, it has to be collective one.

Regards
Sam
Click to expand...

Agreed that the answer is much more complicated for the drummer.. finding an acoustic drummer that understands how to get themselves to sit in a mix properly by touch is tough but I have found a few over the years that seemed to understand this better than most.

You are probably quite correct in your comments about monitoring being a key stumbling block in someone being willing to go ampless. It would take a good system to replace the feel and make it comfortable to play without a back line.

I feel that if I could find a band that is willing to run through a PA system the sound is going to be comparable to a good DJ or jukebox system. It can be difficult to obtain a sound that is fairly even, in a bar setting, without using a PA and some mains which are lifted up to get all that sound to project into the room.. The few times I've seen a group that ran their sounds through a PA, it was noticeable better and it wasn't as loud, especially when you found yourself up close.
 
#45
jaywa said:
Played a gig last weekend where the guitarist had a 30-watt (if even) Mesa 1x12 combo aimed straight out into the room and was still overpowering the mix even with the rest of the band going through a full P.A. and the guitarist pulled completely out of FOH. This was a SMALL (100 people max) wedding reception in a "live" room... completely uncalled for and very frustrating.
Click to expand...

And THAT'S when I open my big fat mouth and put an end to it. Gotta speak up.
Another consideration- the (open) back of the cute little 30 watt combo is often aimed right at the drummer, who will always respond by playing louder, and so on........
Gotta speak up and nip it in the bud.
 
#46
jaywa said:
It can happen with small amps too.

Played a gig last weekend where the guitarist had a 30-watt (if even) Mesa 1x12 combo aimed straight out into the room and was still overpowering the mix even with the rest of the band going through a full P.A. and the guitarist pulled completely out of FOH. This was a SMALL (100 people max) wedding reception in a "live" room... completely uncalled for and very frustrating.
Click to expand...

A lot of times this can be at least somewhat ameliorated by raising and tilting back a guitarist's amp so that his head is in the beam of sound coming from his amp.
 
#47
dmusic148 said:
And THAT'S when I open my big fat mouth and put an end to it. Gotta speak up.
Another consideration- the (open) back of the cute little 30 watt combo is often aimed right at the drummer, who will always respond by playing louder, and so on........
Gotta speak up and nip it in the bud.
Click to expand...

I actually was going to talk to the guitarist about it on the upcoming break but as it turns out we only played about 3 more songs after that and we were done.

I did tell the BL about what I was hearing in the house though (we run our own sound from stage) and I overheard him talking to the guitarist about it while we were tearing down.
 
#48
If the sound guy is good, all any band needs to say is: Nice to meet you. Tell what you want us to do so you can make us sound GREAT.. and once set, keep the band hands off the knobs. Also working with the same same sound guy helps too.

Only recall one gig where the house sound guy was a total dumbass
 
#49
tango6 said:
If the sound guy is good, all any band needs to say is: Nice to meet you. Tell what you want us to do so you can make us sound GREAT.. and once set, keep the band hands off the knobs. Also working with the same same sound guy helps too.

Only recall one gig where the house sound guy was a total dumbass
Click to expand...

+1000

This was my point exactly.
 
#50
oboylebass said:
Recently in my band we switched to in-ear monitors. The guitar player an I do not use amps onstage unless it's a really big one. We have our own PA (powered QSC mains and SUB) with a PreSonus board. People always tell us we sound awesome. I can have whatever I want in my ears and we can be as loud or as soft as we want.

I recommend this approach very highly. My ears never ever ring anymore and there are no more "volume wars" onstage.

Even for gigs where we don't use our PA and use our amps, we just run them low and the FOH guy loves it.
Click to expand...

Same here. In the rock band I play with, all the band members are using IEMs, including the drummer.

With a typical setup of 5 mikes on the drums alone picking up stage wash, you can well imagine how much cleaner the FOH sound is when there is no drum monitor blasting into the overhead, snare and hi hat mikes. The absence of a bass cab means that the bass drum mike is pretty much capturing only the bass drum and not a bunch of rumbling from a bass cab sitting on a wooden stage.

One guitar player uses amplitube as his guitar rig with a foot controller (has a fantastic sound) whilst the other uses a small 15 amp at decent volume. We get as much volume as we want of each instrument and voice in our IEMs and the FOH guy has a clean palate to work with.

I also play with a big band with up to 17 musicians on stage. Since the rhythm section has gone to IEMs, the trombones, trumpets and saxes no longer have to deal with amps being too loud on small stages.
 
#53
Some people just want to be loud and make everyone else listen to their sonic jackery. Or you got some tube-headed guitarist screaming "They gotta burn at just the right temps!" when he's lugging a 100w full stack, and damned if you dare suggest they try using an effects processor (Line6 POD series et al) for their tone.

Strangely enough my last metal band had both guitarists running through FX processors and joining the drummer's signal (MIDI controller and a V-Drum brain) that was getting mixed to a pair of Mackie powered speakers, keys through a proper keyboard amp, and I was using a GK MB200 and a 15" cab. The scary part was how a sound guy could still mess up our mix, considering how easy we made it (EQs, stereo spreads, the drummer is our recording engineer).

Peace,
Greg
 
#55
kanonfodr said:
BTW, my newest guitar amp is a Mesa Studio Caliber DC-2, 22 watts of OHMY******GOD!!! I seriously don't see how some of these guys are running these 100w heads and cranking them through a 4x12, even in a full band jam sesh I've only had to crank my little Mesa to 3 on the Master Volume.

Peace,
Greg
Click to expand...
Old school thinking and the unnecessary need to be loud!
 
#56
kanonfodr said:
BTW, my newest guitar amp is a Mesa Studio Caliber DC-2, 22 watts of OHMY******GOD!!! I seriously don't see how some of these guys are running these 100w heads and cranking them through a 4x12, even in a full band jam sesh I've only had to crank my little Mesa to 3 on the Master Volume.

Peace,
Greg
Click to expand...

Well, remember you double your wattage to get 3dB more volume. Assuming a relatively decent efficiency speaker, your 22 watts might be peaking at say, 109 or 110dB at 1 meter, going up to 100 watts will bring that up to 115 or 116dB. Not a massive difference, really.

(Too f&$%^$ loud in either case, of course.)
 
#57
The same thing happens when you separate the subs.

Array8.jpg
Array9.jpg
 
#58
Chromer said:
Well, remember you double your wattage to get 3dB more volume. Assuming a relatively decent efficiency speaker, your 22 watts might be peaking at say, 109 or 110dB at 1 meter, going up to 100 watts will bring that up to 115 or 116dB. Not a massive difference, really.

(Too f&$%^$ loud in either case, of course.)
Click to expand...

when you look at the numbers like that, it seems like there's not much difference between a 22w, 50w and 100W amp.
all I can say is that I have a 100w Hiwatt DR-103 and when guitarists who are used to 50W amps plug in, are shocked at how loud that amp is.
one of my friends is actually scared of that amp.
so in reality, there's a BIG difference.
 
#59
taurus1 said:
when you look at the numbers like that, it seems like there's not much difference between a 22w, 50w and 100W amp.
all I can say is that I have a 100w Hiwatt DR-103 and when guitarists who are used to 50W amps plug in, are shocked at how loud that amp is.
one of my friends is actually scared of that amp.
so in reality, there's a BIG difference.
Click to expand...
I have a Fender Super (44W) and a 50W Marshall. The Marshall is a lot louder. Go figure.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back