• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Someone cracked the Animato

Not complaining about what I started. :D

Yeah, the external gain control would induce some transistor clipping, can be very musical if it is what you want. It's really strange sounding but just another direction this pedal can be taken. Also, that could be some form of feedback with the higher notes oscillating in and out. I haven't noticed it myself but I'll keep an ear out for it next time I use it.
 
I'll bump just to give an update because some people may not be aware of the situation.

At the moment, I am not making any animated pedals. At the start of the year I purchased a local business off my parents to help my mother with her stress induced illnesses. This of course, has required a lot of effort and time to pull from a loss situation and keep it afloat with working much more hours than I have ever before. I was planning to have the place running pretty smoothly by the middle of this month but a few employment issues left me stranded in a situation where I had to focus all of my time on the shop. The good news personally is it is running much better than before and is now easily sustainable and going well enough to financially provide me a method to make pedals, which is an absolute blessing. I've been able to afford an oscilloscope and a new office/storage space to provide a better place for me to work.

The aim was to have the updated version released between next month and April. The issue with that is my business is fish and chips. Living in a predominately Catholic/aging area in combination with a month long surf life saving carnival and my studies, it means I'm actually very busy during now to Easter time (forgot that Lent is a thing...). Not only that but an internal situation here might mean I'm going to have to pull off a few extra shifts in times where I'd normally be working on pedals (I just work, I'm content with that!)

There's also a few issues in regards to parts sourcing where I've been relentlessly hunting down suppliers. Naturally, I want to make it as affordable as possible and fix any issues I had with the original pedals, mostly in regards to the PCB's being reversed (ugh), the enclosures and finished products/packaging which I wasn't overly satisfied with. I haven't had time to source parts required in a competitve nature, which is becoming increasingly difficult with the diminishing Australian Dollar. The designs are virtually done, they just need to be made and road tested.

So what's going to happen? Well, as normal, I'd encourage you to build your own with the schematic if you can, the resources are definitely available on the net although be aware it's a slightly complex build. Go nuts with it, try whatever you like. It's there to be played with and tinkered. I'll get the new functional website up in a few weeks, hopefully with a progress blog and another pedal I'm working on which some bassists might enjoy if you have wanted something square wave/synth like. I'll work my butt off when I can to get the prototype running then find suppliers and get the parts on the way so when I get the free time, I can focus on building them.

tl;dr Running low on available time, so it's a few months away...
 
So just as a kind of TL;DR for the whole thread (I mean, I have read almost all of it), what do you guys think is THE version of this pedal?

Per my posts in the Breeders thread, I have a friend who has never made pedals before but he is basically a physics and electronics genius (he's currently self-employed making quantum optics single-photon detectors), I would trust him with anything electronics related. He is potentially willing to work on a project like this with me, maybe even show me the ropes. This is really one of the only cloning projects out there that interests me.

I am wondering if we can take Crowella's version and design our own clean blend, or if that's too ambitious. The tilting EQ of John's version would be nice, but I don't know if I need that. Thoughts?
 
The version to go for is the one in the current schematic. That is 1:1. I should at some point write the *exact* type of components but if you use monolithic cermaic capacitors for all but the electrolytic, you're pretty much there.

If you wish to add the clean blend, you'll want to make sure you use buffers and ensure you use a blend that doesn't induce feedback. That was the issue I had with my first prototype. You can include both but it will take a lot of space up. In my current version, I use four buffers with a blend control.

This is how I would go about it:
If you don't have a method of clean blend, go for the clean blend.
If you already have a clean blend, go for the tilt mod/other eq based mod.
If you have the time/patience, add both.
If you want authenticy, just do the schematic as is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adamixoye
yeah 1.10 is the one i used and it works like a charm. i come back to the pedal after a day or two not playing it and i'm always like "wow"!!! this sounds amazing... :-)
 
No problems at all. I'm still getting emails about where they are at so I better get into gear. :D

Board layout for the second prototype is done. I don't want to perfboard this although I noticed in the following photo I need a new toner so one minor setback.

Invalid Link Removed

I'm going to try a NPN 2N5089 by itself instead of the pair. I have a gut feeling that by reducing the transistor gain of the front stage, it'll bring a little bit more of the lows back, similar concept to Russian vs American Big Muffs where the Russian ones have transistors with less gain (hFE) on each stage. Did a quick test here and once amplified, it'll make a noticable enough difference. It'll also reduce some of the noise and allow a bit more freedom with adjusting the trim pot which will most definitely make fine tuning substantially easier.

Little more info I'll say is that the mods here include:
- Relay switching so I can try soft touch switching. I got it working nicely on the breadboard, hopefully I can do the same here.
- Clean blend. So many buffers. It seemed that after a certain point, the last prototype would feedback so this should be a bit more bulletproof.
- "Body" control. Basically adds a bit more low-mids to mids and starts to flatten/scoop a little bit of the high-mids. Almost like the tilt control but I didn't want the low end or high end boosted too much as a result
- Presesnce. I noticed that when I was in band practice with the first prototype, my guitarist loved the higher value cap in the AC filter. It sort of made the sound thicker and warmer. This is just a control rather than a switch now. This is the one I'm most scared about not working as well as planned but seems fine in the simulations.

The rest is pretty much the same. Might sound a tiny bit different to the original due to the mods but now it's worth coming up with something to go over the short comings by using the original as a base and maybe work well as a stand alone pedal with the clean blend or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nshuman
A brief explaination first (and overly simplified so sorry for all the EE's I'm going to annoy, I did Mech Eng so blame my training there). I'm going to refer to something called hFE as this is why I've made this call. hFe pretty much means gain... however that can be a bit vague because gain can mean either current, voltage or power gain. In our case with transistors, it actually refers to current gain. One of the nice things about gain is that it transfers into decibels, or dB with is a measurement of power but we also conveniently use for volume references. hFE itself doesn't have a unit but it is a relationship/ratio of current.

Anyway, the NTE102/NTE103 makes up a combination called a Sziklai pair, or compound pair. There is another pairing like this called a Darlington so it's worth adding that in now. These types of pairs use two transistors to create one larger transistor that has a significantly higher hFE, therefore higher gain/power. The maths is slightly different for a Darlington but for the Sziklai pair, we can get roughly what the hFE is. We will use β for hFE.
β = βQ1 * βQ2 + βQ1

For the NTE102 and NTE103, the hFE is approx 80. It varies more widely in germanium and we are assuming they are perfect, non-leaking, constant temperature and current loading but irrespective, we can get an idea of what the pair does by using the following formula.
β = 80 * 80 + 80 = 6480

In the original, the NTE102 and NTE103 pairing makes sense. Both of those transistors are marketed as being a complementary pair to perform medium-level switching applications. In fact, they are normally used for power applications purely because that is a hell of a lot of gain.

For the 2N5087/2N5088, on the ones I used, they normally measured around 400... You can see how this is going to get mighty big and why I actually had some oversight in suggesting this...
β = 400 * 400 + 400 = 160400

So basically, that is huge. Actually, what ends up happening is you get a limiting effect after a while of turning the trimpot up. It just simply gets incapable of using all of that. So if we're dealing with such a high amount of gain yet limiting it so much with the trimpot, there are a few ways around it.

- Use the original germanium pairing or something similar with low value silicon, or even a hybrid with a lower valued germanium paired with a modern silicon transistor. I currently run this in my first build purely because I managed to obtain some AC128's at a price that didn't require sawing a limb off.

- Use a dedicated darlington pair transistor. The MSPA13 is one of those, with a hFE of roughly 10,000, it might actually be a good candidate. When I breadboarded a Bazz Fuss, it was my favourite as it gave me enough power that introduced nice sustain and allowed me to do more switching of components like diodes without fearing drastic level drops that render it unusable.

- Lower the value you use by using one simple transistor with a decent gain, which is what I plan to do as a darlington/sziklai can easily be replaced by one transistor. The benefit I see here is that I can boost the level by simply turning the trimpot a bit louder, which is probably advisable considering the current setup normally has the trimpot barely turned up. The move to a lower noise transistor like a 2N5089 in a section of the circuit where I feel the most noise is being introduced makes sense. That section is subject to boosting higher frequencies which I feel the noise is most amplified. A 2N5089 will drive a boost/gain section in a lot of pedals already so it is worth trying. Of course, some values will need to be changed in order to optimise the setup but not many (might need to change the input cap to a larger value IIRC).

Again, there are so many ways you can go with this and right now I am just working on ways to make it *better* for bassists overall. Really, it's just another way someone looked at the Big Muff, a pedal that has been tinkered with thousands of times, most often by EHX. This one just happened to sound far more distinct from the rest and the sound seems like a good base to work from.
 
Last edited:
You shouldn't need to but always check that the voltage drop between base and emitter is 0.7V with silicon and 0.3-0.4V for germanium. As I have noted after talking to a few people who have both mine and the original, the 2N50XX pair has a brighter sound and the trimpot does not need to be adjusted far from 0 to get close to the original.

Also, in regards to getting the NTE102/NTE103. I'm afraid I am unsure. You can try eBay but the chances of you getting a legitimate, well working one is slim. Your safest bet is to go to Small Bear Electronics and buy a matched pair. They cost about $9US + shipping but will be set to work.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Alex80
Generic Sziklai. I wouldn't be too overly concerned about finding authentic NTE102/NTE103 transistors. The germanium pairs there will do quite well in place since they are both low gain transistors which paired will come up with a similar gain level and trust me, the rest of the circuit will do far more impact on the sound than the exact transistors. I wouldn't stress. Go with what you can get your hands on rather than specifics. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alex80