Sometimes it's not "Just another gig"

[tZer]

Would you say the drummer was a jerk if he was declining to play at an Islamic temple service?

What about if it was a Zoroastrian church?

Buddhist temple service?

Wiccan (witch) ceremony?

I'd say he's got a lot of obscure and unlikely restrictions on whether or not he'll gig...

 

[StuartV]

Dude - you'd be crazy NOT to do one! Klezmer music is cool stuff!

As long as the pay is not in dreidels or gefilte fish.

 

[fenderhutz]

The plumber analogy is dumb. Yes I said it. A plumber isn't going to go to the church to entertain it's members. They are going to a business to fix a pipe. The sole purpose of the band is to entertain Christians with secular (still baffles me) music.

There is a huge difference.

Would you still chastise the drummer if he said he didn't want to do it because he felt secular music has no place in the church?

 

[jive1]

As long as the pay is not in dreidels or gefilte fish.

My kid would enjoy the dreidel. But the Gefilte...
Oy Vey!

 

[StuartV]

I'd say he's got a lot of obscure and unlikely restrictions on whether or not he'll gig...

LOL!

"I play only for the Glory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise his Noodly Goodness!"

LMAO!

 

[LiquidMidnight]

People have the refuse any gig offered to them. They also have the right to deal with the consequences.

If my band-leader said we were going to play at a Satanic Ritual, or a nudist colony for obese men, I would politely decline. If I got fired for it, I would understand. Maybe he was hoping to get monthly gig at the nudist colony for the obese, and my refusal to play meant he'd have to get a sub every month. It becomes too much hassle, so he hires a guy who loves the 'eye-candy'. Or maybe the Satanic cult doesn't want a Christian coming in to taint the purity of their evil, so they tell them to get a more demonic bassist if they want to get future referals for playing Satanic weddings. In both cases, it's my right to refuse. They can't make me go. Even if they have some type of contract, I may rather get sued for breech of contract than look at some 400 pound guy walking around the beach with his flapjacks rippling in the wind. But, the band also has the right to sue me for breach or fire me from the band for such refusal.

This.

For the record, the short-term satisfaction of firing the drummer over one gig probably wouldn't supercede the long-term benefit of keeping the drummer, unless there is another drummer of equal or better ability already waiting in the wings. I agree with the poster who said that both the drummer and manager probably both share some blame in this.

As far as the legality of firing the drummer, there would be a whole mess of determining whether the drummer was an employee or a contractor, which may have bearing on the legality of the decision to fire him for not doing a gig. Also, there are issues of reasonable accomodation (e.g., it may be reasonable if someone needs to pray for five minutes at noon every day, it may not be a reasonable accomodation to hire a Hindu at McDonald's, who then refuses to handle beef products), as well as issues of whether or not this constituted a bonafide occupational qualification.

 

[eSmith]

Phil, all you have to do is google "KKK Bible" and the links are overwhelming. There is no doubt the KKK metered out there form of justice with a Bible in one hand and a noose in the other.

Seriously, give it a try. It is rather a waste of my time to copy links in to a discussion where those that disagree with you are not even willing to perform a simple google search before they begin to publicly question your accuracy.

one sign of a good discussion or debate is the existance of counter points. not just using "FUD" as you are.

FUD = Fear, uncertainty and Doubt. You are leveraging the uncertainty part. Put some effort in, if you don't agree, give me reasons why.

-eSmith.

 

[thumpbass1]

Firing him is discrimination. You should hope he doesn't sue. He will win. The United States was founded on the premis of "Freedom of Religion" which means "Freedom FROM Religion" as much as any other definition.

Get a sub when your "Manager" wants to pass off doing favors for his church as a gig of some sort. Firing him just shows clearly that your manager is fully supportive of intolorance.

-eSmith.

Our Canadian friend and would be scholar of the U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment? Or are you a U.S. citizen living in Canada? All well intended kidding aside, I'm against both religious and secular tyrannies by the way, but freedom from general exposure to religion in the general discourse of conducting one's life and business in the American culture and society at large isn't in our Constitution. Forcing someone who is unwilling to participate in worship or serve a religious interest they have no desire in doing so, is a different matter entirely.

Such compulsion is wrong. As a person of faith by choice myself, I would never compel anyone to do such a thing. On the other hand if one were a general employee for a business interest that deals with the public, say a delivery person, who refused to deliver packages addressed to a church or synagogue, or maybe a family of a particular religious faith they disagree with, they should be fired. The question here is the gig going to be as hired entertainment, or is it being asked to perform or aid in some faith based agenda? Christians by the way are legally free as citizens to hire secular entertainment, if they choose to do so. My secular band has done such a gig, and the only religious thing about the gig was that it was in a church building, and we did our standard set lists: The same songs we play in secular venues. Nobody preached, prayed, or passed out tracts, or whatever. The folks were appreciative and nice, and money from christians spends the same as everyone else's.

As for the drummer not taking the gig for personal reasons I applaud him, if indeed he's making a stand, from which he feels that he cannot compromise, for his personal beliefs in regards to matters of his liberties of conscience that all citizens of the U.S. have under the First Amendment, be they religious or not. With that said, sometimes making a stand can come at a cost. I've made stands that have offended some of my fellow Christians, and I've had my share of differences with non-religious people as well, that have cost me some at times; but I feel better having made a stand on those things I just can't compromise on. I wouldn't have fired him, but would rather have hired a sub based on the initial points of the OP's post.

 

[tZer]

The plumber analogy is dumb. Yes I said it. A plumber isn't going to go to the church to entertain it's members. They are going to a business to fix a pipe. The sole purpose of the band is to entertain Christians with secular (still baffles me) music.

There is a huge difference.

It sounds pretty much like any old gig to me. I didn't hear any indication that the band would have to participate in any ceremonies or provide religious music. It sounds to me like the drummer passed on an easy money gig.

I still don't know what the drummer's rationale was - other than he "refused to play" - but based on the description, it sounds like he missed a chance to line his pockets and lost a gig because of it.

The "dude" may have been a little quick to fire him - but that only says to me that he and the drummer weren't getting along anyway.

I think if the drummer's sole reason (almost a pun) was the fact that it was a 'church-ish' gig, then he seems a little uptight to me. It's one thing not to want to go to church, it's another not to want to go into one...

Oh wait... did he have a bad 'alter boy' experience as a child? That could explain a lot...

But again - the drummer's reasons WERE NEVER GIVEN! So speculate away!

Who wants to toss in a NAMBLA meeting analogy?

 

[Phil Smith]

Phil, all you have to do is google "KKK Bible" and the links are overwhelming. There is no doubt the KKK metered out there form of justice with a Bible in one hand and a noose in the other.

Seriously, give it a try. It is rather a waste of my time to copy links in to a discussion where those that disagree with you are not even willing to perform a simple google search before they begin to publicly question your accuracy.

one sign of a good discussion or debate is the existance of counter points. not just using "FUD" as you are.

FUD = Fear, uncertainty and Doubt. You are leveraging the uncertainty part. Put some effort in, if you don't agree, give me reasons why.

-eSmith.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion that you are just making stuff up. FUD??? Sad, really sad.

 

[jive1]

Sorry to be the one to enlighten you on this point but there would never have been a KKK without the bible they used to justify it. Some of the most racest parts of the KKK are taken and supported directly by the christian bible. It is the basis of all tenents of the KKK.

A compairison between the two is perfectly justifible as the KKK is simply another sect of christianity just like all other man made branches (ie. Mormanisim)

Not being "OK with it" as you suggest is clearly intolorance.

-eSmith.

Meh, some dudes will take any thread that even mentions religion, church or Christianity as a springboard express their hatred of religion or half-@$$ed theories, regardless of whether it has anything to do with the topic. I guess all the soapboxes on the corners must be filled up.

Remember folks, this is a guy who once tried to argue that there were more hot chicks at radio controlled helicopter conventions than at our gigs.

 

[eSmith]

Go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_United_States

Then look for this part and read it:

The "wall of separation"Thomas Jefferson wrote that the First Amendment erected a "wall of separation between church and state" likely borrowing the language from Roger Williams, founder of the First Baptist Church in America and the Colony of Rhode Island, who used the phrase in his 1644 book, The Bloody Tenent of Persecution.[10] James Madison, often regarded as the "Father of the Bill of Rights",[11] also often wrote of the "perfect separation",[12] "line of separation",[13] "strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States",[14] and "total separation of the church from the state".

Then come back here and tell me it doesn't mean freedom FROM religion as well.

-eSmith.

 

[eSmith]

Remember folks, this is a guy who once tried to argue that there were more hot chicks at radio controlled helicopter conventions than at our gigs.

No, not even close, I said they have a far better hot chicks thread and they do. I think I even pointed out at the time that gigs have a LOT more chicks than heli rally's which to me makes it an even bigger fail.

And I didn't try to ARGUE it at all. I was just pointing it out.

-eSmith.

 

[electracoyote]

I find it hard to believe that people are so unaware or dismissive of the significant segment of society that has serious aversions and avoidances toward organized religion.

This segment of society is just as offended by issues and symbols of religion as some others are offended by concepts like white supremacy and genocide.

This is a fact. Let's admit it and move on.

You don't have to share that mentality. Just admit it exists and tolerate it. That's the American way.

 

[tZer]

eSmith - dude... relax, Please. This is a thread about a trigger-happy band manager and a drummer who didn't want to do a gig. Can we give the Constitution and Biblical connections of the KKK, et al a rest?

Wow... Talk about Mt. Molehill...

And a big +1 to this:

For the record, the short-term satisfaction of firing the drummer over one gig probably wouldn't supercede the long-term benefit of keeping the drummer, unless there is another drummer of equal or better ability already waiting in the wings.

And I cannot resist...

I find it hard to believe that people are so unaware or dismissive of the significant segment of society [DEL]that has serious aversions and avoidences toward organized religion.[/DEL]
who are intolerant.

Fixed it for you. Yes, yes, yes... There are intolerant people of all stripes in the USA.

USA! USA! USA!

Intolerance is what it is whether you are not tolerant of religion, sexual identity or preference, atheism... and I will be the first to admit that I am thoroughly intolerant of intolerant people!

 

[eSmith]

Thanks for confirming my suspicion that you are just making stuff up. FUD??? Sad, really sad.

So.... No reasons why huh?

Too bad you didn't take my advice to use google. DARE YOU to type in "FUD" on google and hit enter.....

Then come back and tell me I'm making it up.....

Are you going to let me nail you a third time on this same point or are you getting it yet?

-eSmith.

 

[samc2527]

I hope he does sue over discrimination, he will win. I'd also leave any band like that, I'm jewish and wouldnt have a problem playing a church but I can see why someone would.

 

[eSmith]

Sorry, I am relaxed, just pointing out incorrect statments made by others.

I'm sorry Jive if I offended you. I just reacted to someone elses post, didn't start the whole religion thing.

Funny, I see it like you do from the other side, doesn't matter how reasonable or fact bassed and civil a discussion is, if you don't believe in there god, some people just choose to react with feigned offence.

I see that as an attempt to intimidate people into not openly discussing anything.

-eSmith.

 

[lenosgood]

LOL!

"I play only for the Glory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Praise his Noodly Goodness!"

LMAO!

May sauce be upon him!

 

[tekhedd]

We're a four piece C&W cover band who usually plays small bars, dance halls, and road houses. We were just informed by the manager (who's band it is) that the drummer has been fired for refusing to play a gig he lined up for us in a few weeks playing a church service.

Considering how personal religion is, and since we aren't a praise and worship group by any stretch of the imagination, I think it would have been better to get a sub for the drummer and respect his beliefs. My guitarist is of the opinion that it is "just another gig" and the drummer should have played it no matter what his personal beliefs.

What are your thoughts?

Speaking as an atheist and devout follower of the FSM, I'd want to know what the gig pays before I make a judgment here.

Personally, I'll play for anybody who has money. I won't do charity gigs where the charity is something that I feel is morally objectionable. (See how I'm avoiding editorial anti-church comments here? Sometimes it's good to be me!) I've played in a jazz band where the keyboard player wouldn't play any songs about drugs or sex (think 90% of steely dan, etc). The rest of us respected that, it was just his deal. Funny how respect doesn't always go both ways, though.