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Sometimes we win

seanm

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize!
Supporting Member
Feb 19, 2004
8,629
3,199
Ottawa, Canada
seanm.ca
I know everybody has a gig where everything just goes right. Well, yesterday was that gig for me. My playing was better than usual... but this is about live sound.

It was supposed to be a duo, so I just needed to bring my bass amp. However, at the last minute two other members of the band decided to join, so I got a frantic call to bring the PA. But don't bother with the monitors.

Instead, the BL used two acoustic guitar amps as the monitors and provided me with line outs rather than mics. Aside from some hum between sets (which I muted), this worked really well.

The one singer will not get close enough to the mic. So it is really hard to hear her. I don't know if it was because she could hear herself better because of the private monitor, or if the amp just did a better job with boosting the volume... but you could actually hear her! The balance was great!
 
Yeah, she's someone (when you're controlling it) ya want to keep the volume on her monitor such that she doesn't back off the mic. :)

I actually seen where someone will ask for more monitor and the more you give them the more they back off the mic!

Do get me started on people speaking to an audience and the shear lack of any mic technique or mic awareness.
 
I actually seen where someone will ask for more monitor and the more you give them the more they back off the mic!

Do get me started on people speaking to an audience and the shear lack of any mic technique or mic awareness.
This was a problem with one person who came up to thank people. He would hold the mic too far... people would tell him to hold it closer. He would and say "How is this" and it was great. Then he moved the mic away again to speak :(
 
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Yeah, she's someone (when you're controlling it) ya want to keep the volume on her monitor such that she doesn't back off the mic. :)
I had same issue with WL at church this am. 1st time I’ve run this guy and he was trying to add dynamics by backing off the mic and singing 6, 8+ inches away, seldom “right on” the mic. Ampless stage, all IEM, but he plays an acoustic, so it was tough mixing (2 girls doing backing/harmonies) as he was singing based on what he heard in his ears.. the mix HE controls from his phone!
 
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"You must EAT the SM58.
Or move about 2" away from a Sennheiser e935 so the mic can pickup the subtleties of your voice without the proximity effect of an SM58 that you have to eat to be heard. Easier to do too because the Sennheiser is a hotter mic.

I had to get our sound guy to raise the gain a bit on both of the sound boards he used when I was using an SM58. He'd refuse to raise his level slider above the rest of the group who were using Sennheiser mics, but I finally convinced him to raise the gain a touch, which put me at the same level as their 3 Sennheiser mics. You have to be careful with gain settings though because it's very easy to get into feedback if you raise the gain too much.

I eventually got a great deal on a Sennheiser e935 which didn't need the gain boost to be at the same level. I also found out it suited my voice better than the SM58 did. So I like that mic a lot. Did not get the e945 because its super-cardiod pattern doesn't reject rear sources as well as the e935 with its standard cardiod pattern. I like that mic a LOT!
 
Or move about 2" away from a Sennheiser e935 so the mic can pickup the subtleties of your voice without the proximity effect of an SM58 that you have to eat to be heard. Easier to do too because the Sennheiser is a hotter mic.

I had to get our sound guy to raise the gain a bit on both of the sound boards he used when I was using an SM58. He'd refuse to raise his level slider above the rest of the group who were using Sennheiser mics, but I finally convinced him to raise the gain a touch, which put me at the same level as their 3 Sennheiser mics. You have to be careful with gain settings though because it's very easy to get into feedback if you raise the gain too much.

I eventually got a great deal on a Sennheiser e935 which didn't need the gain boost to be at the same level. I also found out it suited my voice better than the SM58 did. So I like that mic a lot. Did not get the e945 because its super-cardiod pattern doesn't reject rear sources as well as the e935 with its standard cardiod pattern. I like that mic a LOT!
Yup, we are old stick in the muds(58s were good enough for Grampa). My favorite drummer bought a Sennheiser. It is much hotter than our grampa mics. So he should have it 2 inches away? Good to know, thanks
 
Yup, we are old stick in the muds(58s were good enough for Grampa). My favorite drummer bought a Sennheiser. It is much hotter than our grampa mics. So he should have it 2 inches away? Good to know, thanks
No.. just turn the gain down on the mic.. drummer singing 2” away from a mic will pick up a lot of the kit.
I use an E835 and sing right on it… no, I’m not a drummer, but one should pretty much be “on” any mic when on a live stage.
 
Yup, we are old stick in the muds(58s were good enough for Grampa). My favorite drummer bought a Sennheiser. It is much hotter than our grampa mics. So he should have it 2 inches away? Good to know, thanks
Yeah, at least for me about 2" away is just outside the proximity effect and it really picks up the subtleties of your voice much better.

I'm going to go one better for you than the "grampa" mics. Back in the early 70's when I was touring with a nightclub group, the "standards" for mics were the Shure 565SD and the 545SD. This was before the SM58. Look at some old pictures or videos of Woodstock and you'll see people using the 565SD just about everywhere. It looks like the SM58 except that it is shiny and came as a high impedance mic that could be changed to low impedance if desired.

The 545SD was also the high impedance/low impedance, shiny mic, of what became the SM57. I think it was in 1973 that I first saw a Shure SM58. Back then though they were over $200 and the 565SD was anywhere from $99 to $119. The SD was the designation for the silent magnetic reed on/off switch. The "normal" D on other mics made an audible click when you turned the mic on or off, but the SD versions were silent.
The mic I'm singing through in this shot from 1972 is my 565SD and the guitarist, Steve, is singing through a 545SD. I'm playing my '65 Jazz there through my Standel amp which is peaking out from behind Steve:
DanAndAmp_600x801.jpg


I was surprised to find out that the mic I bought in 1971 (52-years ago) is back in the mix at Shure. The Shure 565SD is $96.94 at Sweetwater. I wonder when they reintroduced it? I really liked the silent on/off switch it had.:
upload_2023-9-19_1-48-22.png
 
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No.. just turn the gain down on the mic.. drummer singing 2” away from a mic will pick up a lot of the kit.
I use an E835 and sing right on it… no, I’m not a drummer, but one should pretty much be “on” any mic when on a live stage.
I understand your reasoning on the drummer although I haven't seen that be a problem, especially if they have their kit mic'd. Normally placement slightly below the drummer pointing up at an angle to his mouth works fine. The cardiod pattern of the Shure 565SD, SM58, and Sennheiser e935 has excellent rear and side rejection. The reason I didn't buy the Sennheiser e945 was specifically because the rear rejection on its super cardiod pattern was not nearly as good as it is in their e935. And of course, there's a big difference between 2" away and 6" away. But like you say, if it's a problem, turn down the gain a bit and raise the level on his mic as needed.

And I don't really agree with you about being always "on" the mic in a live situation. That absolutely depends upon the singer, the song, and the harmonies. The guy who sings lead on most of the songs in one of my groups absolutely eats the mic and the proximity effect has a positive effect on his voice. It can be a little thin without it.

I've been playing live situations since 1966 and back then we very much sang close to the mic. I had a Shure 585D back then and the rest of the group had those EV 664 mics. But back then, if your polarity on you mic didn't match the polarity on your bass, you'd get a nice shock to your lips if you got too close to the mic. Back then was before we had polarized and grounded plugs that could only be inserted in one way. We learned quickly to be real careful about how close we sang to the mic and about matching polarity. But this was high school and harmonic blend wasn't a bit priority. So most of the time we sang close to the mic.

But when I started touring in 1971 using my 565SD that wasn't the case at all. We had 4 lead singers - female vocalist singing country and rock, guitarist singing Creedence Clearwater songs, Conga player sang Elvis and Tom Jones as well as some country, and I sang most of the rock songs that weren't female vocals. We worked out harmonies on every song so there was 3-part harmony behind the lead vocalist. If you recall the 5th Dimension, we did a number of their songs.

When singing harmony, you have to listen to your placement in the vocals and adjust accordingly to get the blend of sound you need. Typically, if you're too loud, you back off the mic a bit to compensate. If you need to be louder, then you come a bit closer to the mic. It's known as working the mic and it's pretty much required when singing multiple part harmony. Even if you're the only one singing a harmony part, you need to be sure you're not louder than the lead vocals. If you are already eating the mic and eat the mic regardless of what everyone else is doing, your harmonies will suck.

If you have a really good sound tech who EQ'd out the proximity effect from your mic and he is familiar with all the songs that you sing lead and harmonies on, he would have a heck of a time making all the adjustments at each song, at each place there's harmony, to do what the singers should be doing on their own by working the mic. For me, with either my SM58 or my e935 I get a far better sound at about 2" away from the mic and the Sennheiser sounds better with my vocals. And if I do what you say I "must", I lose the subtleties of dynamics and inflection that are important parts of the songs I sing.

So, for me, 2" back is best. That might not work at all for you and I doubt there's any broad generalization that will work for everyone.