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sorting notes and tabs

Well Ed, it isn't out of stupidity I have chosen this path. I live in Northern wisconsin... lots of woods, lots of lakes... not so many music schools. There is one music store, 45 miles away from which I purchase books with DVDs, I watch youtubes, and I come here for advice.

I'm not against the idea of having a flesh and bones real world teacher, it just isn't very likely to happen where I live.

You could try taking lessons via skype.

Back on point, you should know the fretboard as notes AND patterns; they aren't mutually exclusive, they're complimentary. Stick with reading (I can give you some tips if you need help); it's just a matter of time before everything comes together.
 
It bears mentioning that Reading is not about translating dots into string/fret locations. It's about recognizing musical intervals.

Reader's don't think: " That dot is A#. A# is at the 6 th fret on the E string OR 1st fret ion the A string. I choose this fret"

Readers see the musical interval between the dots and play that shape on the neck.
"the next dot is a major third away form the previous one. The shape of a major third is like this..."
 
You could try taking lessons via skype.

Back on point, you should know the fretboard as notes AND patterns; they aren't mutually exclusive, they're complimentary. Stick with reading (I can give you some tips if you need help); it's just a matter of time before everything comes together.

But only if you don't go running for the tabs when it doesn't happen overnight.
 
It bears mentioning that Reading is not about translating dots into string/fret locations. It's about recognizing musical intervals.

Reader's don't think: " That dot is A#. A# is at the 6 th fret on the E string OR 1st fret ion the A string. I choose this fret"

Readers see the musical interval between the dots and play that shape on the neck.
"the next dot is a major third away form the previous one. The shape of a major third is like this..."

Actually, I think that readers do both, but for the most part, at a subconscious level.

wcnewby, think of it like this: when you were learning written English, you first learned all of the letters and how the were pronounced. You then learned to put the letters together to form words. Later, you learned to put the words together to form sentences.

When you first started to read, it was probably a very slow process as you worked through the individual sounds you had learned for each letter, and sounded them out to figure out what word they spelled. However, as you became more familiar with the letters and the patterns that they formed, you learned to recognize entire words at a glance. You no longer needed to stop and consciously think, "ok, that letter is an r, and it has this sound, and that letter is an 'e' and it has this sound, and an 'a' has this sound, and a 'd' has this sound, and when I put them all together, they spell the word 'read.'" Instead, you looked at the four letters together and instantly recognized that they made the word "read," without ever giving conscious thought to each letter. Eventually you learned to recognize groups of words in the same way, and you were able to read whole phrases or sentences without stopping to consciously think about each word in the phrase.

Learning to read music is a similar process. At first, you have to learn where each note is on the fretboard. You also have to learn which dot represents each note. And you also have to make the connection between the dot and the fret board. With practice, those connections will become second nature so that they do not require conscious thought. Just like learning to read English, it is a process and it takes time and practice in order to become proficient.

Once you achieve that, however, you can look at a note and quickly identify where on the fretboard to play it. When you see a series of notes, you can recognize without thinking how they relate to each other in much the same way that you recognize words without thinking about the individual letters.
 
Once you become familiar with where the notes are on the neck, you will realize that the dot part of the note already contains that information.

I do understand that most of this is due to lack of experience, but as a beginner clarity is kind of important. I should have a teacher, given... Because a teacher would explain the dots on the neck of the guitar. I know they are markers, and I do use them. I don't have them on the face of my fretboard, but they are on the side of the neck.

What is the explanation for how they are positioned?
 
The dots are positioned (typically) at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th stop positions or frets. Each fret is a half-step. A half-step is the smallest musical interval in common western music.

The dots are on the side of the neck so you can see them when you are looking at your neck in playing position so you don't necessarily have to crane your neck around to see the face of the fretboard.

Your strings are tuned in 4ths - there are 5 1/2 steps between your open E and your open A - E(1)F(2)F#(3) G(4) G#(5)A

Learning your major and minor scales (in terms of intervals) and how to play them in positions on your neck will go a long way toward demystifying the neck for you.

I know you said it's not really in the cards, but you are interested in all the right things and it's easy to see why you would start looking for alternatives to learning all this - but you really should do yourself a favor and find a teacher to ensure you don't mis-learn critical stuff.

I know we're making it all sound so esoteric - but, as you are pointing out, there are some 'short-cuts' that will actually help you in the long run - tabs just don't happen to be one - teachers, on the other hand, most definitely are.

But in lieu of a flesh and blood teacher there are sites that are pretty good at describing the things you need to know. Just go slowly and post more questions here as you have them and we'll all do what we can to help you through.

This site will help you through a LOT of these questions
 
This site will help you through a LOT of these questions

Good call, I just took a peek in there... Looks chock-full-o information. I appreciate the lending of experience going on in here. I have a thread in Miscellaneous called "free custom lyrics" in which I am attempting to lend experience of my own. I can't share much along the lines of bass knowledge with you folks, but I'll share what I do have.
 
Good deal and good luck.

It's so important, especially for people who are more interested in developing as musicians than as simple 'this instrument' players, to learn about music. It's equally important for those people to learn about how to play instruments properly - and part of that definitely includes knowing where the notes are. But beginners in both areas can easily be confused by some pretty important processes and in trying to reconcile those with their goals, inadvertently teach themselves some things that work against them.

You have the right attitude which is 99% of the battle. The BEST solution is to have a teacher who can take personal interest and responsibility for your development. If you don't have the ability to find a teacher and you are going to try to self-teach, it's very important that you get support and guidance from places like TB - and the site I suggested.

Dig in - ask questions - there is no shortage of people here who will be more than happy to help.
 
Stop thinking like this. A "fifth" is a specific relationship of pitches to each other, not of geographic locations.
Do you have a teacher?

Ed, I agree with you, in regards to the need to understand intervals first, learn to recognize them, learn their roles in scales and grasp the concept that intervals are relations between notes. But having a clear understanding of where in the instrument they are is just as important to execution as the concept is to theory.

If I may, I'd rephrase your statement a bit, into "Stop thinking like this. A "fifth" is a specific relationship of pitches to each other, not ONLY of geographic locations. Learn BOTH."
 
I'm beginning bass player and am having frustration with notes and tabs. I want to be able to read music so I picked up books with exercises. These have taught me to read the notes.

The thing I notice is that bass players use patterns. If you read the notes, you discover the pattern, and it becomes easier to play without reading the notes. So far so good....

Now, more advanced lessons. We are playing fifths instead of open notes, for ease of keeping the patterns and to allow the pattern to move around on the neck. Enter the frustration. The notes I am reading do not indicate that they should be played in a different position. This is where tab is easier for me, but then I don't know the notes, and I'm reading tab again when I want to read music.

I find that if I try to read the music, I can't play the piece because my mind is translating instead of telling my fingers to move where they should be. If I memorize the tab, I can play it like lightning. I don't even have to think, my fingers retain the muscle memory and all is good.

Now, my worry. I am not an experienced player, and I don't want to go down a road that is going to make furthering my skill more difficult. I don't want to be stuck on a low plateau because I taught myself something that prevents me from advancement.

How do the experienced people sort this out?

Wayne
First I'd suggest you forget tab.

Practise reading dotts-analyse any piece , find the highest and lowest notes and decide, guided by that, which position to play the notes in.
It'll become easy with time.
 
Well, tab is in all of my beginner books, and I am trying to forget it because I am finding it dangerous to my growth in music. It has already tripped me up. It is a shortcut that is just to comfortable.

It was my thought, in an earlier post that a morphed type of notation would be handy. I still think it would be. I'm taking the advice of experienced people here. They are right, not because they are smart or good looking, but because they have been there. Now, I wonder if people will listen to a beginner.

The problem with this version of tab is that it does not help you remember the notes. You have to know where they are so you can get to them. You can't be thinking of them as 7th fret because when you hear your lead guitar switch from G to A a fret number won't help you at all. If there was some way to incorporate the note name in tab or the fret position in note, it would end the madness. (just for beginners) Showing the current sort of tab to a beginner is like giving crack to an ignorant teenager.

It's all about evolution
 
It bears mentioning that Reading is not about translating dots into string/fret locations. It's about recognizing musical intervals.

Reader's don't think: " That dot is A#. A# is at the 6 th fret on the E string OR 1st fret ion the A string. I choose this fret"

Readers see the musical interval between the dots and play that shape on the neck.
"the next dot is a major third away form the previous one. The shape of a major third is like this..."
You get to a point with reading where you don't even think about it.
 
..i dont think tab and notation need be mutually exclusive

sometimes you just want to get a tune under your fingers, i do anyway....depends your goals
I have never heard of someone who has gotten decent at reading ever want a tab to get a tune under their fingers.

Listen, you have a gig, you're not the world's greatest reader, you've got a new tune or 20 to learn...all's fair in love and learning songs, so if a tab makes it easier for you, then use it. But tab really does become unnecessary and quite honestly a hindrance once you get reading down.
 
Well, tab is in all of my beginner books, and I am trying to forget it because I am finding it dangerous to my growth in music. It has already tripped me up. It is a shortcut that is just to comfortable.

It was my thought, in an earlier post that a morphed type of notation would be handy. I still think it would be. I'm taking the advice of experienced people here. They are right, not because they are smart or good looking, but because they have been there. Now, I wonder if people will listen to a beginner.

The problem with this version of tab is that it does not help you remember the notes. You have to know where they are so you can get to them. You can't be thinking of them as 7th fret because when you hear your lead guitar switch from G to A a fret number won't help you at all. If there was some way to incorporate the note name in tab or the fret position in note, it would end the madness. (just for beginners) Showing the current sort of tab to a beginner is like giving crack to an ignorant teenager.

It's all about evolution

Once you know where everything is on your fingerboard things will get easier too.

Nothing will help you as much as good old practicing will.
Knowing Tab may help in certain situations...but there really is nothing to know, so don't worry about that one I'd say:).
 
Seeing as I am currently learning to sight read sheet music not just for Bass but also for Guitar I want to address something here.

What you need to learn is not just that a note on or between the line represents a place on the fretboard but where that note lies.

And that seems to be your question.

It is really pretty simple I have come to find out... the answer lies in the key signature on the piece of music.

Knowing your scales will tell you this, right now I am going to speak 6 string Guitar cuz that I what I know best but the same holds true for Bass or even Ukulele.

G scale as noted by a single sharp #
If you look at the staff and see a note on the center line it is a B and that could be played open on the B string

G flat scale shows 6 flats bbbbbb
The same note on the staff could be played at 3rd fret on the G string.

G sharp minor shows 5 sharps #####
Still the same note on the staff but is now played G string 4th fret.

It could also be the 9th fret on the D string or the 14th fret on the A string.

How do you know where to play it?
As was said you have to look at the other notes on the staff.

In the example of the 9th fret I know it needs to be played there due to the highest note is on the 4th ledger line above the staff and there are no notes below the staff as would be the case for playing it on the 4th fret.

I could go on but I think this gets the point across that you not only need to know the fretboard to find a note but also what key you are playing in.