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Double Bass Sound dummy needs help in capturing a sound live...

Fast Freddie

Fast Freddie

Nov 1, 2008
328
456
Florida
#1
I'm by no means a sound engineer, but I know my instruments. My upright bass has a good sound but I'm still not happy with the sound capture. I've recorded using a Realist Pickup for Acoustic Upright Bass....no likey. Then I tried a Micro-Gooseneck by Myers Pickups.....still no likey. I thought to myself, why don't it sound like an upright? Those P/U's make my upright sound like I'm playing an EUB. Then I googled recording upright bass and found this video:

Definitely helped me out, (especially the foam around the mic in the bridge), but I could not afford to buy a high end condenser mic like the one in the video, (luckily the budget SM-57 I do own). After doing some more googling I was convinced even a budget cheapy condenser mic will do the trick. Tried my MXL-V57M condenser with the Sure SM57 onto two separate tracks and BAM! I got close enough to be happy now! Recording and capturing the live upright sound is solved.

But here's where I'm not so happy anymore.....I liked it so much, that I want to be able to duplicate that sound live with just the two mics and a duel mic pre-amp so that I can patch it into my amp. Here's my gear: An upright, (obviously), the Sure SM57, the MXL condenser mic, an M-Audio DMP3 Dual Mic PreAmplifier, and a GK MB-112 Combo bass amp. I'll be using a mono splitter cable which I haven't gotten yet to patch into my amp. I'm I in the right direction? (The bass clip is the sound I got on my home recording).
 

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#2
Fast Freddie said:
I liked it so much, that I want to be able to duplicate that sound live with just the two mics and a duel mic pre-amp so that I can patch it into my amp.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but what you've described for recording is a recipe for disappointment when amplifying the bass. You are likely to reach feedback before you reach your desired output level. You might be able to do what you're suggesting if the mics were fed to a FOH PA, with minimal "you" through monitors, but into a bass amp, not so much. Large-diaphragm condensers are more prone to feedback than any other mic.

If I'm playing a low-volume gig, my recipe involves a dynamic omnidirectional mic right up close to the bass's top. If it's not low volume, I use a pickup. I'd rather compromise on the sound than worry about feedback.
Live amplification has always involved compromises between sound and practicality. Hence, the pickup.
 
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#6
AGCurry said:
If I'm playing a low-volume gig, my recipe involves a dynamic omnidirectional mic right up close to the bass's top. If it's not low volume, I use a pickup. I'd rather compromise on the sound than worry about feedback. Live amplification has always involved compromises between sound and practicality. Hence, the pickup.
Click to expand...

Good call! Yep, it is a low volume situation, (duet...w/vibes). Lots of old jazz recordings were made live and the uprights are miked up. That's what I was trying to duplicate but I guess those were patched through a P/A and not an amp. Thanks!
 
#8
Ok that's clearer now, are you intending to use this rig with two microphones live? If that's the case, your problem will be that the amp will bleed into the microphones even with great isolation. I send a Remic DB5400LB FOH and my pickup

a Ehrlund EAP to the amplifier, through a Grace Designs Felix. Works great, cost a lot.
 
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#9
WELL, despite the august members in attendance I will have to disagree.

In a LOW VOLUME setting, I NEVER use anything but a microphone. I run my mic (an Xlson Chuck Israels mic) through my Genzler Acoustic Pro (Gollihur Model) which provides 12v of phantom power.

I had to change my moniker from 'Gear Junkie' to 'Gear and TONE Junkie'. The gear is only there in support of the tone. I have attempted for years to get the sound on stage that I associate with a good recording where the double bass is only captured by a good microphone. To my ears, I've now gotten as close to that as I need to. Any other gear would be bound to have rapidly diminishing returns.

The proof of the putting is in the recording.

 
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#11
Fast Freddie said:
Yep. That was the idea, but AGCurry correctly pointed out its feedback probematic into an amp. I wish I new what FOH is? Anyway yeah I'm not spending big money to capture a sound. I thought it was possible with modern tech toys.
Click to expand...

FOH is 'Front of House' meaning the PA providing sound 'out front' primarily (although there may well be monitors for the band.

The only concession I make to combat feedback is to turn down my treble control ALL THE WAY. On the Genzler that is a 7500 hz shelving control. I have separate bass and sweepable mid contol which I can use to fine tune for the room - normally those two controls at flat - 12 o:clock.

I typically put my amp up on a short pole - sometimes up to ear level when I'm sitting down. In the video above you can just see the blue power light on my amp to the right of my bass behind me.

Don't be discouraged before you give it a try. I have also tried much less expensive mics (including $50 SM 48) and had good success with those as well.

Again, relatively LOW VOLUME and be prepared to turn the treble down or off.
 
#13
Fast Freddie said:
LOL! Very cool...me likey. Where is it miked up to? Also, that mic stand is it attached to the body somehow?
Click to expand...

The amplified sound (which sounds just like the 'acoustic sound') is coming from my Genzler Acoustic Pro amp which is right behind me.

Probably most amps designed for bass (guitar) will not be the best. The Genzler is originally a guitar amp - very flat sounding - which Mark Gollihur had the brilliant idea of asking Jeff Genzler to put a bass woofer in - the same woofer as in the Genzler 10-2.

If you have or can borrow a decent powered PA speaker - especially one with a 10 or 12 in woofer you might also find that sounds good with a miced DB. You just need a speaker that has good low-end response.
 
#15
rickwolff said:
WELL, despite the august members in attendance I will have to disagree.

In a LOW VOLUME setting, I NEVER use anything but a microphone. I run my mic (an Xlson Chuck Israels mic) through my Genzler Acoustic Pro (Gollihur Model) which provides 12v of phantom power.
Click to expand...

Rick, I did write that I use a mic in low-volume settings, so we do agree, it would seem. I wouldn't, however use a LDC or multiple microphones.

Two other points where my experience is different from yours:
1) I usually have to turn bass down, not treble. This may be because of the mic(s) I use and their positioning. In fact, I generally use an EV RE55 (40-20k hz), but I get acceptable results with an EV 635, which rolls off at 80 hz.
2) Depends on what you mean by "good low-end response." I've used a QSC K8 powered speaker (8-inch woofer, not known for extended bass response) with good results. The Ampeg SVT is generally considered as a great bass-guitar amp, but it does not have what I'd call "good bass response." It sounds good but there's not a whole lot of fundamental.
 
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#16
rickwolff said:
WELL, despite the august members in attendance I will have to disagree.

In a LOW VOLUME setting, I NEVER use anything but a microphone. I run my mic (an Xlson Chuck Israels mic) through my Genzler Acoustic Pro (Gollihur Model) which provides 12v of phantom power.

I had to change my moniker from 'Gear Junkie' to 'Gear and TONE Junkie'. The gear is only there in support of the tone. I have attempted for years to get the sound on stage that I associate with a good recording where the double bass is only captured by a good microphone. To my ears, I've now gotten as close to that as I need to. Any other gear would be bound to have rapidly diminishing returns.

The proof of the putting is in the recording.

Click to expand...


I have to admit this sounds really nice. But let's keep in mind you are using a >$1,000 boutique mic and clamp that are designed specifically for acoustic bass. Even with this fine mic, I believe the level you can run your amp without significantly degrading the sound is pretty limited. IMHO if any significant stage volume is required of the amp, the best approach will be to run a contact pickup for the amp and use the mic just for recording purposes.

There are contact pickups that get closer to the sound of an acoutic bass, but you need to tools and expertise to pull it off. I was generally pretty happy with the original Realist, but it tends to sound a bit underdamped with pizz. IMHO a Realist works well for pizz on some basses and not so well on others. I played a 50/50 bow and pizz and at the time the Realist was pretty much the best compromise for anyone who did a lot of bowing. Since then the Ehrlund EAP has come available, and I believe it is has the closest sound to a mic of any contact pickup I have heard. But you need a good bass to begin with, it is sensitive to positioning, and it's also fairly expensive.

After you get a good contact pickup you need to be concerned about your amp and EQ. I know a lot of people like the little MB112 amps, but I think string bass sounds way better through an amp that approximates full range and flat response like your Genzler amp.

When you plug your bass into an amp, a feedback loop is formed between the bass, pickup, amp, and the acoustic environment. Unfortunately the louder you need to play, the more this feedback loop degrades your tone. A major problem is the feedback loop does not have a linear frequency response, and as you turn up the non-linearity becomes more and more apparently. The effect of the feedback loop can cause extra sustain in some ranges of the bass, ringing, and even dead notes. The only tool we really have to deal with this problem is equalization and amplifier placement.

One issue is most amps have pretty limited EQ sections with fixed frequency centers. In order to address the problem you need an EQ with variable frequency centers and variable bandwidth. Some amps do have one or two channels of semi-parametric EQ, which can be helpful. Some amps also have a notch filter which is a deep narrow dip that you can center over a frequency that wants to feedback.

Empress makes a semi-parametric pedal called the ParaEQ than be used for tuning out problems. There are actually several companies that make semi-parametric EQs but the ParaEQ is the only one I can think of that has a bandwidth control that allows the use to select the necessary narrow filter width. A fully parametric EQ would be better, but I am not aware of a quality fully parametric EQ in a pedal format. My recommendation would be to start with the idea of using your amp to get a basic tone, and using the ParaEQ as a utility EQ which can be used to zap problems. Ultimately you use both EQs as required.

Another thing that I like to do to reduce the interaction between the bass's body and the acoustic energy coming from the amp, is elevate the amp to at least waist level. This has the added benefit of getting my ears into the dispersion pattern of the speaker so I can hear better. This approach is not a panacea for everyone. Some players love it, and some players hate it.

One final idea to cover. Anytime you use a mic, you are going to get bleed from surrounding instruments. The Xlson is designed to minimize bleed, but it is not totally immune from it. Consideration of where the bass is placed in relation to other instruments, the direction the mic and bass are facing, and any sort of barriers that can be used to provide acoustic isolation are important considerations. By barriers I mean things like acoustic gobos and/or sound shields that can be placed between the bass and other instruments to limit how much sound reaches the mic.
 
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#17
Fast Freddie said:
I'm by no means a sound engineer, but I know my instruments. My upright bass has a good sound but I'm still not happy with the sound capture. I've recorded using a Realist Pickup for Acoustic Upright Bass....no likey. Then I tried a Micro-Gooseneck by Myers Pickups.....still no likey. I thought to myself, why don't it sound like an upright? Those P/U's make my upright sound like I'm playing an EUB. Then I googled recording upright bass and found this video:

Definitely helped me out, (especially the foam around the mic in the bridge), but I could not afford to buy a high end condenser mic like the one in the video, (luckily the budget SM-57 I do own). After doing some more googling I was convinced even a budget cheapy condenser mic will do the trick. Tried my MXL-V57M condenser with the Sure SM57 onto two separate tracks and BAM! I got close enough to be happy now! Recording and capturing the live upright sound is solved.

But here's where I'm not so happy anymore.....I liked it so much, that I want to be able to duplicate that sound live with just the two mics and a duel mic pre-amp so that I can patch it into my amp. Here's my gear: An upright, (obviously), the Sure SM57, the MXL condenser mic, an M-Audio DMP3 Dual Mic PreAmplifier, and a GK MB-112 Combo bass amp. I'll be using a mono splitter cable which I haven't gotten yet to patch into my amp. I'm I in the right direction? (The bass clip is the sound I got on my home recording).
Click to expand...


The problem with the foam approach is the mic is not ideally aimed where the bass produces it's best tone. You may be able to use this approach successfully in studio setting where there is no amp and you are isolated from other instruments. But IMHO it is not a good mic technique if you are running the mic through an amp and playing with other instruments. When you are live you need to maximize acoustic isolation.

Although they are probably more than you want to spend, a quality mini gooseneck like a DPA 4099 or ATM350A will be a huge improvement over sticking an SM57 in a piece of foam under the bridge. These mics have a tighter polar pattern than an SM57. For more acoustic isolation aim the mic straight at the bass and bring it closer to the instrument.

This video shows the DPA and ATM mics.

The 4099B has a mount that clips into the afterlength of the strings. The ATM350UL is the ATM350A mic with a long goose neck and a clip. You should be able to attach the clip up under the tail piece to one of the string balls.

If you don't want to spring for an expensive mic, consider this:
H-Clamp Light Upright Bass and Cello Microphone Mounts at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

I believe using proper mic technique with an SM57 will be a huge improvement over the foam approach. Try the mic on a stand first to if the sound is better with the mic aimed at the bass. Experiment with positioning to find the best tone. Then if you get better results, consider buying a mount so you can maintain the mic in a consistent position as you move around.
 
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#18
Wasnex said:
The problem with the foam approach is the mic is not ideally aimed where the bass produces it's best tone. You may be able to use this approach successfully in studio setting where there is no amp...
Click to expand...

Perhaps I did not explain too clearly. (Listen to the sound clip). I did not use a bass amp, (I never do in a recording, its patched direct into the interface). I used two mics. One with the foam, the SM57 in the bridge, (rendering a boomy image but controlled via volume during the mix down). The condenser mic on a stand aimed at the f-hole about 24" out, (which gives tonality, clarity and all the nuances of the the upright). Two separate tracks combined. The result had several of my musician colleagues impressed with the sound coming very close to the real thing. So for all its worth, this method actually did work for me. So I would have to disagree that it does not produce it's best tone. It does, and it blows away any P/U I've ever used, (in my opinion P/U's make an upright sound like an EUB and I'm not convinced that any of them can do otherwise). But that's not what I was trying to convey. Duplicating that very same sound on a live stage is what I'm now trying to achieve now. Good feed back and info though. Thanks!
 
#19
In a small drummer less group I can use a microphone into the P.A. easily. Trying to get that sound from an amplifier on stage with a larger group

isn’t something I’ve been able to do. The closest I’ve com is the Ehrlund EAP. Just my take. Good luck.
 
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#20
Fast Freddie said:
Perhaps I did not explain too clearly. (Listen to the sound clip). I did not use a bass amp, (I never do in a recording, its patched direct into the interface). I used two mics. One with the foam, the SM57 in the bridge, (rendering a boomy image but controlled via volume during the mix down). The condenser mic on a stand aimed at the f-hole about 24" out, (which gives tonality, clarity and all the nuances of the the upright). Two separate tracks combined. The result had several of my musician colleagues impressed with the sound coming very close to the real thing. So for all its worth, this method actually did work for me. So I would have to disagree that it does not produce it's best tone. It does, and it blows away any P/U I've ever used, (in my opinion P/U's make an upright sound like an EUB and I'm not convinced that any of them can do otherwise). But that's not what I was trying to convey. Duplicating that very same sound on a live stage is what I'm now trying to achieve now. Good feed back and info though. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Whey did you mention the amp if you are not using it?

The bottom line is any mic is going to pick up the loudest sound that reaches its diaphragm. Unfortunately the upright bass produces very little acoustic volume relative to most other instruments, so it is a very challenging instrument to mic live. Even with the mic right on top of the instrument, it can be difficult to get the sound of the bass over the bleed from surrounding instruments. Even using a directional mic close the instrument may not totally eliminate bleed. This is because some of the bleed comes from sound hitting the bass and then reflecting back into the mic. High frequency sounds in particular are really bad at this.

The Xlson works as well as it does because it is designed to be positioned right on top of the bass, and then the mic has a custom EQ contour to produce a natural sound with this placement.

An important principle you need to understand is the inverse square law: "for every doubling of the distance from the sound source in a free field situation, the sound intensity will diminish by 6 decibels." Consider how much the level of the bass drops off when you move the mic back 24". Although 24" may be the ideal placement for tone with your mic and bass, it's probably not the ideal placement to use in a live situation where the bass is performing with other instruments, especially if those instruments are louder than the bass. I also suggest you Google "mic 3 to 1 rule."

Here's a video that compares the Ehrlund to some mics. I agree the mics sound better, but keep in mind my suggestion was to use a contact mic if you use an amp, and use a microphone for recording (where possible). Also the front recordings of the Ehrlund are awful IMHO.

Although I suspect you will not be interested. I will mention the Audio Sprockets ToneDexter.
Audio Sprockets ToneDexter Tone-Correcting Preamp at Gollihur Music - Double Bass, Upright Bass, String Bass Specialists

From the Gollihur page:
  1. The ToneDexter compares the acoustic sound of your bass (using a microphone) to the sound coming from your pickup.
  2. It then creates a WaveMap; a sonic signature, of sorts, which corrects the sound of your pickup, making it sound much more like the microphone signal.
  3. The preamp stores this WaveMap (and up to 21 others), allowing you to recreate that acoustic tone in a live situation, using just your pickup.
So you're essentially copying the tone from a microphone, and pasting it to your pickup.​

Here's a long thread. Audio Sprockets ToneDexter

I have not used a ToneDexter and in no may am I qualified to endorse it. But I do find the concept interesting.

Anyway, I think you have a long and frustrating journey in front of you. Eventually I think you will come to recognize that live sound requires a lot of compromise and it is not possible to have exactly what you want.

Good luck.
 
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