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Double Bass Sound dummy needs help in capturing a sound live...

#21
Great video. Awesome comparisons. Thanks for those great suggestions. My comeback was mostly about the confusion when it came to recording with that method I posted. It worked for me. Now for the live stage thing, I would have to agree...that's a long and winding road. As far as frustration goes, yeah live may cause some headaches. I guess I'll leave that up to the stage engineers. Alleviates a lot of stress and allows me to concentrate just on my playing. But its great that I got all this input.
 
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#22
@Fast Freddie

Here's video I thought you might find interesting. FYI per the comments, the pickup used to drive the ToneDexter is the Bassbalsereit, which I think really makes the bass sound like an EUB. The ToneDexter does help, but I think the Ischell still sounds way more natural. IMHO too bad he did not try Ischell with the ToneDexter.

 
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#23
Not keen on P/U's anymore mics are definitely the way to go. That Tonedexter is a pretty nifty tool. (Nifty Price tag too). I did check out those bass condenser mics and actually the ATM350 isn't too over priced. Currently looking at the Audio-Technica PRO35, (I think its the next line up). Listening to that video clip I liked it's sound more than I liked the DPA 4099.
 
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#24
Wasnex said:
Here's a video that compares the Ehrlund to some mics. I agree the mics sound better, but keep in mind my suggestion was to use a contact mic if you use an amp, and use a microphone for recording (where possible). Also the front recordings of the Ehrlund are awful IMHO.
Click to expand...



They certainly are, I find that the EAP actually sounds better through a decent preamp and speaker than it does for recording.
 
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#25
Fast Freddie said:
Not keen on P/U's anymore mics are definitely the way to go. That Tonedexter is a pretty nifty tool. (Nifty Price tag too). I did check out those bass condenser mics and actually the ATM350 isn't too over priced. Currently looking at the Audio-Technica PRO35, (I think its the next line up). Listening to that video clip I liked it's sound more than I liked the DPA 4099.
Click to expand...

The Pro35 is way cheaper than the ATM350A kits. You get a lower quality mic attached to short goose neck with a fixed clip. The 350A is better mic and gives you more mounting options at a higher price point. You also get the option of selecting an 80hz HPF.

If you watch Ebay for awhile you can probably find a nice use ATM350UL for a decent price. Although I have not had a chance to use them, I bought five ATM350As in various configurations along with accessories to ensure I had the functionality I actually wanted. The lowest price I paid was $150.50 for an ATM350PL, which includes he piano mount and a long goose neck. I bought a couple of new clips for $39. So the total to make it an ATM350UL was $189.50.
 
#26
Ric Vice said:
They certainly are, I find that the EAP actually sounds better through a decent preamp and speaker than it does for recording.
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I haven't recorded an EAP. I have demoed one on a friend's bass and mixed him during several concerts. Also listened to many of his rehearsals. I was both surprised and impressed with how authentically it captured the sound of his bass through the amp and PA. The only negative I noticed is the cable was a bit microphonic. I believe the model has been updated to mitigate this.
 
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#27
Wasnex said:
I haven't recorded an EAP. I have demoed one on a friend's bass and mixed him during several concerts. Also listened to many of his rehearsals. I was both surprised and impressed with how authentically it captured the sound of his bass through the amp and PA. The only negative I noticed is the cable was a bit microphonic. I believe the model has been updated to mitigate this.
Click to expand...

They did change the whole design of the EAP @ 2010 the cable is better than the early ones but you still have to keep it away from the top and bridge.
 
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#29
Fast Freddie said:
I don't get it...why discontinue something that was so good? (ATM350A). Seems to be the trend now. Found a new one on eBay, (with a cheapy deepy velcro mount), for $299 semolians....ridiculous. :spit:

Audio-Technica ATM350a Cardioid Condenser Accordion Mic w/ Surface Mount - 5" 4961310149406 | eBay
Click to expand...

That is probably not the mount you want, unless you plan to permanently attach it to the bass.

Also where did you see that the mic is discontinued. It's only been out a few years and the manufacturer's page doesn't mention anything about discontinuing the product.
Invalid Link Removed


When you are looking for a bargain be careful because the ATM350A is offered in wireless kits that do not include the AT8543 XLR adapter/power module. As far as I know the AT8543 is not available for sale separately.

I would recommend the ATM350UL as it has the 9" 8490L gooseneck and a clip. The normal street price for this kit is $309.

Ebay currently shows open box ATM350Us for $225, but this kit comes with the 5" AT8490 gooseneck. Audio Technica ATM350U Mini Condenser Clip-On Instrument Microphone Mic w/XLR 613815578574 | eBay


If you can find a cheap long gooseneck with free shipping and discounted ATM350U kit, you're going to come out ahead buying both. Adorama sells both sizes of the goosenecks for $30, but I don't know what their shipping rate is.

I suggest looking the at range of accessories on the product page linked above and keeping your eye out for cheap used kits. As I mentioned earlier I wound up buying an ATM350PL kit for $150.50 so I just needed to buy the $39 AT8491U clip to get the functionality of the ATM350UL kit I wanted...plus I actually wanted the AT8491P piano mount as well, so I got real bargain on that mic kit.
 
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#31
That's likely a very minor revision. If you can find the ATM35 it's a better microphone. I owned one, but I didn't like it's clip mount because of it's limited range. It is about half the price of the DPA 4099Devote Core, but the DPA has far better

bleed and off axis rejection, so it's less likely to have feedback issues in a live performance. Granted it is a brighter sounding microphone. Even with it's great resistance to feedback and bleed, I still couldn't get it to work back to my amplifier.

FOH to the P.A. it's a dream. If you're looking for a warmer sound the AMT SP25B (Applied Microphone Technology), has a better tailpiece mounting system and often comes up for sale in the TB classifieds at very reasonable prices. I had great

luck using it into my Walter Woods amplifiers as it seems.

Screen Shot 2020-05-05 at 10.23.48 PM.png
 
#32
Fast Freddie said:
Th ATM350 was discontinued and updated to the ATM350a. (My bad).
Click to expand...

That makes sense. The ATM350a is a really system with all of the different mounts and goosenecks etc. The ATM350 just has the gooseneck with a fixed clamp.

If you check the specs they are slightly different in regards to sensitivity, Max SPL, Dynamic Range, and S/N Ratio. The AMT350a is superior on all but S/N Ratio. Frequency response looks about the same for both.

I do believe the ATM350 capsule fits in the ATM350a goosenecks. Size and weight of the capsules appear to be identical. I am not sure if they actually changed the capsule are just update the power module. The ATM350 uses an AT8542 power module and the ATM350a uses an AT8543 power module. It's possible the capsules are the same and the difference in specs can be attributed to the new power module. So if find a really cheap ATM350, you could buy the long goose neck and clamp separately and possibly save some money...just make sure whatever you buy includes the power module.
 
#33
Ric Vice said:
That's likely a very minor revision. If you can find the ATM35 it's a better microphone. I owned one, but I didn't like it's clip mount because of it's limited range. It is about half the price of the DPA 4099Devote Core, but the DPA has far better

bleed and off axis rejection, so it's less likely to have feedback issues in a live performance. Granted it is a brighter sounding microphone. Even with it's great resistance to feedback and bleed, I still couldn't get it to work back to my amplifier.

FOH to the P.A. it's a dream. If you're looking for a warmer sound the AMT SP25B (Applied Microphone Technology), has a better tailpiece mounting system and often comes up for sale in the TB classifieds at very reasonable prices. I had great

luck using it into my Walter Woods amplifiers as it seems.

View attachment 3817110
Click to expand...

The frequency response plot for the ATM35 shows a bit of emphasis from 3k to 15k. I would think it would sound brighter and more detailed.

The Pro35, ATM350, ATM350a all show flat frequency response. The Pro35 appears to roll of the highs and lows more than the others.

My experience trying to use a mic live with upright is with the AMT. The guy I knew with the Ehrlund tried the AMT a few years earlier. The AMT sounded fabulous when he played by himself, but IMHO it was barely usable with an amp. He used a Dtar Solstice preamp so he could blend it with a contact pickup and was able to get enough volume to play with a big band, and the mic still helped make the sound a bit more authentic. But when the drumset played the bleed from the cymbals made it impossible to use the mic. He tried rolling off the highs, but you could still hear the hash from the cymbals over the sound of the bass in the amp. Also with the highs rolled of, it no longer provided the fabulous authentic string bass sound.

My impression is the DPA 4099 and Xlson both have a bit better rejection than the AMT and Audio Technica Mics we have been discussing.

Despite my experience, here are some sponsored videos where the AMT is used live and seems to work fine.




I don't honestly know how they pulled it off...but then again I never had luck mic'ing a grand piano with the lid open near a live drummer either. One potential difference is these videos feature combo playing where the drummers appear to be playing with great touch sensitivity, rather than big band playing where the drummer tends to bash.
 
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#34
Wasnex said:
I don't honestly know how they pulled it off...but then again I never had luck mic'ing a grand piano with the lid open near a live drummer either. One potential difference is these videos feature combo playing where the drummers appear to be playing with great touch sensitivity, rather than big band playing where the drummer tends to bash.
Click to expand...

Bleed is not the enemy if it's pleasant and not overpowering.
 
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#38
Ric Vice said:
Totally agreed, if the drummer is a sensitive percussionist, then it can definitely work. I realize that in some instances "sensitive percussionist" is an oxymoron.
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I guess I've been blessed to play with a few good drummers... of course, I've played with a few of the other kind too.

There are drummers who are musicians and drummers who are just drummers. I have no use for the second category.
 
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#39
Ric Vice said:
Totally agreed, if the drummer is a sensitive percussionist, then it can definitely work. I realize that in some instances "sensitive percussionist" is an oxymoron.
Click to expand...

AGCurry said:
I guess I've been blessed to play with a few good drummers... of course, I've played with a few of the other kind too.

There are drummers who are musicians and drummers who are just drummers. I have no use for the second category.
Click to expand...

A good big band drummer is generally expected to be loud and aggressive in my experience.

I ran sound on several tours where the piano player wanted to use the random grand piano that was available. I always advocated to use our keyboards as they produced a better sound than I could get with an unfamiliar grand piano.

It was always a challenge to get the piano over the drum bleed, plus each piano tends to have drastically different focis, so it can take a really long time to find the optimum mic positions.

The technique I eventually settled on was to use an approach with the lid on the short stick with the piano cover draped over the edge for further isolation. I used a pair of Schoeps CMC6 with MK6 capsules set to cardioid setup in approximately a NOS pattern up near the hammers.

This is by no means the best mic technique to use on grand piano, but you when you are dealing with a loud ensemble and only have a few minutes to get the mics up on an unfamiliar instrument, it usually provides results you can live with.
 

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