Double Bass Sound dummy needs help in capturing a sound live...

[Ric Vice]

There are exceptions, Mel Lewis was a fine example of a Big Band Drummer with exquisite taste.

 

[Wasnex]

There are exceptions, Mel Lewis was a fine example of a Big Band Drummer with exquisite taste.

Here as video I found with Mel Lewis on drums. Looks like the bass is mic'ed. The piano is mic'ed with a technique similar to the one I described except the lid is taken off and the mics are a bit farther from the hammers.

 

[bassmanbrent]

Here as video I found with Mel Lewis on drums. Looks like the bass is mic'ed

There's definitely some pickup in that bass sound too (IMHO), but still - it's George Mraz! Amazing player.

 

[Ric Vice]

There's definitely some pickup in that bass sound too (IMHO), but still - it's George Mraz! Amazing player.

Definitely is, ( I got to hear him with Tommy Flanagan he was using a Wilson P4 and a GK 200MB) and he’s the only one wearing a dashiki.

 

[notabene]

I ran sound on several tours where the piano player wanted to use the random grand piano that was available. I always advocated to use our keyboards as they produced a better sound than I could get with an unfamiliar grand piano.

Recently I played "piano" (pretty decent Yamaha "touch sensitive" weighted keyboard) for a couple of hours with guitar, el. bass and drums. rock, soul, etc.

Afterwards, leaving the studio, I paused to play a small grand, not particulaly well tuned. It was like night and day, in that the real piano became a wonderful percussion instrument with a real sense of touch that the digital one just didn't have. Pretty good electric, pretty crappy grand, but what fun the real one was!

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Totally agreed, if the drummer is a sensitive percussionist, then it can definitely work. I realize that in some instances "sensitive percussionist" is an oxymoron.

No no, they could be sensitive to other thing than dynamics.

 

[Ric Vice]

True, like anything else coming to their field of vision.

 

[Wasnex]

Recently I played "piano" (pretty decent Yamaha "touch sensitive" weighted keyboard) for a couple of hours with guitar, el. bass and drums. rock, soul, etc.

Afterwards, leaving the studio, I paused to play a small grand, not particulaly well tuned. It was like night and day, in that the real piano became a wonderful percussion instrument with a real sense of touch that the digital one just didn't have. Pretty good electric, pretty crappy grand, but what fun the real one was!

I came across a variety of pianos from Yamaha baby grands, to Steinways, all the way up to a Bosendorfer or two.

I totally get the difference between a weighted synth and a nice piano, but I am most concerned with sound quality.

In an acoustic setting where the piano can stand on its own, the choice is obvious. In a big band where I have to run the piano through the PA and deal with bleed from an aggro drummer, the keyboard is going to sound far superior. So it comes down to feeding the pianist's ego or serving the audience's needs. My priority is giving the audience the best possible show, so my recommendation is to use a quality keyboard.

I am not saying its not possible to get a good sound of a piano, but you have to really know the piano intimately to pull it off. One of the recording studios I did a session at had a nice grand piano and they said it took about two years before they really figured out how to get a nice balanced sound from it. They were surprised by choice of dissimilar mics and also the mic technique. I believe they had one mic midway over the sound board and then another at the farthest position from hammers on the inside of the case in the small of the curve. One small and one large diaphragm condenser.

Unfortunately in my experience most of the venues that have a nice grand piano cannot provide any insight on the best position for close micing the piano. I have received a few recommendation from stage managers for distant micing with the lid on full stick, but this is not useful with a big band or concert band IMHO.

 

[notabene]

So it comes down to feeding the pianist's ego or serving the audience's needs.

I understand your point of view (a keyboard is easier/better for the audience sound), but I have a bit of an issue with the issue with the keyboardist's preference being "ego" driven. The physicallity of making music is important too, and enjoying the act of playing also affects the "sound". I don't question your preference, but am sympathetic to the joy of playing some keyboardists can get from the direct physicality of a real piano.

 

[Ric Vice]

I understand your point of view (a keyboard is easier/better for the audience sound), but I have a bit of an issue with the issue with the keyboardist's preference being "ego" driven. The physicallity of making music is important too, and enjoying the act of playing also affects the "sound". I don't question your preference, but am sympathetic to the joy of playing some keyboardists can get from the direct physicality of a real piano.

Very true, what I've found is that Yamaha is getting really close with their new models. I've recently worked with one in the studio, doing some trio recordings. Love Grand Pianos though

 

[Wasnex]

I understand your point of view (a keyboard is easier/better for the audience sound), but I have a bit of an issue with the issue with the keyboardist's preference being "ego" driven. The physicallity of making music is important too, and enjoying the act of playing also affects the "sound". I don't question your preference, but am sympathetic to the joy of playing some keyboardists can get from the direct physicality of a real piano.

I don't question the joy one gets from playing a fine instrument, I just think it needs to be considered in the big picture. A band puts on a concert to entertain the audience and not the individual musicians. In order to achieve this goal, IMHO each musician will need to make certain concessions. Choosing to play an instrument that provides a superior experience for one person at the expense of everyone else, just comes across as myopic and selfish to me. Keep in mind that I am also an instrumentalist, so I know what it means to be told to turn down, adjust my tone, or play on a different instrument. And yes, sometimes I can find it to be a bit insulting.

Now consider the perspective from an audio tech who is asked to mic a different piano on every gig, rather than the normal keyboard which always sounds fabulous. I am actually a very competent audio tech who get's quite a few compliments for producing a mix that sounds more like an acoustic ensemble than most. But mic'ing an unfamiliar piano and getting good results is incredibly difficult, especially when you only have a few minutes to place the mics. If the piano sounds bad during the concert, who do you think is going to be blamed? The audio tech of course, but IMHO getting a good sound out of an unfamiliar piano is next to impossible.

My position would might be different if I were working with a piano that I knew well enough to get a good sound, but this takes a lot of time and each piano tends to require very different mic techniques for optimal results.

IMHO, when you are there to do a job, doing the job well should take priority. Thankfully most of the time, a decent acoustic piano was not available so it was a moot point. The majority of the time the keyboard sounded way better than real piano, and the keyboardist played just fine.

 

[Zbysek]

I understand your point of view (a keyboard is easier/better for the audience sound), but I have a bit of an issue with the issue with the keyboardist's preference being "ego" driven. The physicallity of making music is important too, and enjoying the act of playing also affects the "sound". I don't question your preference, but am sympathetic to the joy of playing some keyboardists can get from the direct physicality of a real piano.

+1