Sound guy making making support bands sound worse

[lacesoutdom]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

 

[zjanderson]

Are you referring to large arena/amphitheater concerts or a local gig at a small bar/venue? With the former, I have definitely heard an improvement of the mix with each act. Some openers only get a limited amount of channels depending on the console being used.

 

[PauFerro]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

My brother did an American tour with his band, backing up some acts you might know that were popular back in the 90's, and he said one reason he felt their American tour flopped was because there was never time for a sound check. They had been nominated for a Juno award in Canada previously, and had won an MTV music award with one of their hits as well. They also had several hits on Canadian radio, so they were a decent band both live and in the studio -- I saw them multiple times. But I noticed that at big live concerts (stadiums), the sound was "dirty" -- not due to distortion, but it wasn't clear and each part distinct like the other bands that followed. So, that might be part of the problem. Bigger acts get more attention. There are people who have toured a lot here on Talkbass and might know better. I don't think any sound man is out to sabotage a band by default though.

 

[lacesoutdom]

My brother did an American tour with his band, backing up some acts you might know that were popular back in the 90's, and he said one reason he felt their American tour flopped was because there was never time for a sound check. They had been nominated for a Juno award in Canada previously, and had won an MTV music award with one of their hits as well. They also had several hits on Canadian radio, so they were a decent band both live and in the studio -- I saw them multiple times. But I noticed that at big live concerts (stadiums), the sound was "dirty" -- not due to distortion, but it wasn't clear and each part distinct like the other bands that followed. So, that might be part of the problem. Bigger acts get more attention. There are people who have toured a lot here on Talkbass and might know better. I don't think any sound man is out to sabotage a band by default though.

Yeah i get that, id like to think the sound guy is honourable, and im sure he is, but just thought with labels, and management they might be like, make the headliner sound better etc, we're paying your bills etc...

noticed it in stadiums, and also in smaller <300 venues. perhaps the sound guy doesnt care too much?

 

[lz4005]

perhaps the sound guy doesnt care too much?

They either don't care, don't have the time or the available channels to make the opener sound their best. Nobody is putting in the effort to make them sound bad on purpose.

 

[PauFerro]

Yeah i get that, id like to think the sound guy is honourable, and im sure he is, but just thought with labels, and management they might be like, make the headliner sound better etc, we're paying your bills etc...

noticed it in stadiums, and also in smaller <300 venues. perhaps the sound guy doesnt care too much?

Sound is another cottage industry, in my view where it's easy to get into the business with a small investment in equipment for smaller venues. So, it's competitive, and people generally want to do a good job so they get a call back. I don't think it's that they don't care -- I think it's a variety of things -- the person's experience, their ears, and also the expectations of the musicians. Artists types are the worst in my view because they expect everything to be perfect, so they tend to really beat up on the sound man. Professionals are better, as, from the other thread I started, they realize the sound is rarely ever perfect -- and then show up, adapt, and go home having done a good job in spite of the challenges.

This forum is replete with stories of some of the top players in studio and live work, who were in really bad performance situations, and made adjustments to deliver good quality in spite of the challenges. I think these people are easy to please -- I am somewhat in that category myself where as long as the front of house is good, I am personally happy. My only concern is the enjoyment of the experience of the musicians on stage, and my ability to retain them over the long term, so I care about the onstage mix from that perspective primarily.

So, I think there is a tendency to beat up on sound people, for them to be inexperienced and untrained, and I don't think the majority are out to use their position of power (no pun intended) to upset people.

 

[whatizitman]

I went to a big metally show a few years ago (talked into it by my buddy, as I'm not a metal fan). It was a multi-band show, many of the bands well-known. All of the bands had horrible, horrible sound. Not just poorly mixed, but cutting out all or certain frequencies. Just gawdawful. The only band I really wanted to see (Wolfmother) had the the worst sound of all. The vocals in particularly were not just muddy or off balance, they were non-existent. It overall sounded like there was major problems, noticeable by even the most tone deaf of audience, and it seemed like no one cared to try to fix any of it.

The only exception was the headliner (Disturbed). Their sound was dead-on excellent. That singer can wail live. I just figured the headliners have riders in their tour contracts that allow for their own sound team and/or board, etc...(?)

 

[aldaa]

Yes. I saw Black Dahlia Murder, Nile, Behemoth, and King Diamond in Tampa about 13 or 14 years ago... Somehow the sound guy managed to screw up the sound for the first 3 bands (all big names), but I remember King Diamond being flawless. You could tell how furious the guys from Nile were... it was bad. Like, the guitar's fader got boosted by 6 db or so half way through a song - bad. Keep in mind, none of these three support bands were unknown local bands (not condoning messing up any band's sound). These were bands with record deals and a huge following at the time.

 

[mellowinman]

A lady I used to know, and was in a band with told me if she ran sound for other bands, she always made them sound worse, to make hers sound better.

It wasn't nearly as much help as she needed.

 

[ArtechnikA]

The last time (really...) B.B. King came to Philadelphia the opener's sound was horrible. Too loud (the last time I left my house without earplugs too - it's where I learned y lesson...) and ice-pick shrill guitar. Guitar / bass / drums. Good room - heard lots of good music there. B.B. and his band sounded great. Maybe the opener's sound guy was a hearing deficit and it sounded good to him. Or maybe there was more going on...

 

[Scott Baiowulf]

I've seen the opposite happen. Went to see Deftones and Rise Against co-headline, with Thrice opening. Thrice sounded incredible, really flawless sound. Deftones and Rise Against sounded like garbage. Terrible guitar noise and you couldn't hear Rise Against's singer at all. We were really floored by how bad the sound was after Thrice left, the only explanation we could come up with was that maybe Thrice toured with their own sound guy.

 

[five7]

I ran sound for 25 years and always tried to make all bands sound good. You never know who is going to be the next big thing. I remember when nirvana opened for dinosaur jr. at the gothic theatre. We all though what a crappy band. 6 months later they win a grammy.
I provided sound where the headliner had their own tech where they would go out of there way to sabotage the openers. Either by limiting channels or by demanding fader only as in do not change the eq. Or by eliminating the main eq's. all together. Some tech's are dicks.
Bring your own sound tech. There are techniques that will help as a opener.

 

[mansjasont]

Only one experience with it really, but I was playing in a band about 10 years ago and we opened for a band that had recently signed to EMI(Canada). I noticed, from being on stage, to being in the audience of the show that there was a significant difference in the quality of the mix between us and them... and this was in a club we had played at many times with the house sound crew.

 

[picker1974]

I recently saw Testament, Behemoth, Anthrax, Lamb of God and Slayer and that exact thing was happening. All the bands except Slayer sounded muddy and the bass drum was stupid loud, shaking the entire place and was very uncomfortable to listen too. I can tell you that all those bands have amazing talent but there was something fishy going on with the sound, and they all had their own sound people too. It was disappointing.

 

[Don Hergert]

With one band, we did a morning set at a festival and the sound crew didn't make it there in time. We stepped off stage and into the audience and played all-acoustic for them under a tree. Everybody loved it -- it was one of the most gratifying performances we've ever done.

With another band, we were PA'ed for a live audience, and simultaneously video broadcast live and from that feed video recorded for YouTube... The PA was fine, but the video feed cut off the sound for everything except for the keyboard and singers. We were glad that the live audience could hear everything, but YouTube is forever and that turned out awful.

At one big wedding gig, we brought our own sound guy and our own sound equipment. Everything was perfect, and the wedding was a complete success.

Unless you provide your own sound person and your own sound equipment, you're at the mercy of whatever happens.

 

[ThudThudThud]

I'd like to think that the sound guys/girls are professionals.
Many are working any particular venue for possibly the first time, or it's been a while since they were there.
The sound check was an empty space, and once the venue filled the acoustics changed too.
The opening acts are where the fine tuning happens.
By the time the main act is on, the kinks have been worked out.
Anyone who purposely sabotages another band's sound is unprofessional, and of questionable ethics.
If you can't win without cheating, you need to rethink your standing.

 

[LowFactor]

I've been mixing professionally for 17 years in the touring market. Never once been told to make an opener sound bad. General rule of thumb though is they have to be quieter than the headliner. Just because they have good equipment doesn't mean a thing or that they know how to use it. A lot of young bands get in a big room and think they have to crank their amps up. Totally destroying whatever mix was out front. Or that buying a SVT and an 810 will automatically give them a good tone cause that's what their hero uses. Without actually knowing how to use it.

I've noticed when mixing festivals, the first couple of bands are generally a struggle. Too much low end coming from the guitar amps, everything too loud on stage... bass player cranking the lows on their amp and then standing a foot in front of it.... as the day goes on and you get into the better known and more professional acts it gets easier cause they get it. It's a collaboration between everyone and they have their tones dialed in. Not just a bedroom time cranked up.

If all the acts are sharing one console then the headliner gets preference. Everyone else only gets a few channels or can only ride the fader. So the eq that sounds good on one amp might be horrible on the next. If it's a big tour then there are normally separate consoles. But if the openers don't have their own crew then the person mixing is normally a tech or the patch guy, someone lower on the crew than the engineers...that's traditionally how you move up. Start with the openers and if you do a good job then you may stay with them as their career progresses. Also depending on the day most openers get screwed on sound checks. Sometimes just a line check and a prayer before the first song.

 

[sawzalot]

As a sound guy, there are so many reasons why you get good/bad sound. I always try to get good sound, bc I really like everything to sound good. Usually if I'm using a digital desk where I can soundcheck each act, store their settings and pull them up when it's their turn, I can do a pretty good job assuming nobody onstage is causing problems I can't fix. There are always issues to solve but usually I can get through them. As one of the other posts said, you never know when you're running sound for the next big act, and if they remember you did a good job you might wind up on a big tour with big rigs, venues and stages.

 

[JRA]

i have never met FOH's who purposely punked an act. however, in practice: all kinds of limitations/variables can combine to effectively put an opening act at the mercy of those processes. and there's this: the headliner gets the most 'attention' because they are the draw --- the reason why everyone gets paid.

i'm sure it has happened. but it's mostly a myth.

 

[kalle74]

In most cases, there is no deliberate attempt to sabotage the support act's sound or lights, but limitations might apply. Of course, depending on the venue and main act.

Some variables and possible "why's" below...:

The techs and gear. If the support act bring their own professional techs and as much gear as possible, there might be not too many negative effects on the appearance of support act, other than restricted overall volume (which might negatively affect the "impact" of the music a bit), and restrictions on visuals.

If the support act is mixed by headliner crew, don't expect them to know the support band's sound and songs by heart (the very core of a good mix), no matter how good or pro they are. It takes loads of prepping, and a lot of shows to cater to the fullest. Their no1 priority is the headliner, the one who pays them. They'll have to endure a lengthy (likely loud, too) show after the support act, so "saving their ears a bit" is understandable. The headliner gets more volume, to have most impact on the audience. It's their show, support is there to "warm up the audience".

Setup. Headliner is not likely to move their stuff onstage, once it's set up. Why? They normally dont like doing (possibly very) complicated setups twice, if it can be avoided somehow. Anything changing is likely to affect THEIR (sound and/or lighting) setup negatively, and multiplies the chances of something going wrong. Thus, the support has to adapt, to the point of having extremely limited space and a less-than-optimal setup. Also, if support does not bring their own mixing desks, mics etc, the headliner is not going to compromise their show by sharing theirs or doing massive re-patching (which might go wrong during a hurried changeover). Again, it's their show, and people are paying to see the headliner's best show.

Lighting. Say, the theme of headliner tour is red and yellow (repeated on album covers, merch etc, too). If they did not restrict the use of said colors on support act lighting, their show wouldn't make much of an impact if support act saturated their show with the same colors. I've seen support acts go with only white light. Looks bland, but makes the headliner's set really "explode". Same goes with strobes and pyros, you can only take so much in one night.

Also, there is a possibility that the headliner simply sounds better. Better arrangements, tighter playing, more thought-out sounds, carefully selected mics on each source, etc. No sound engineer can make a mediocre band sound beyond their abilities. A good mix compliments good music.