Sound guy making making support bands sound worse

[buldog5151bass]

Somehow I doubt pro soundpersons are intentionally making a band sound bad - that seems like sour grapes to me. More likely there is less time to soundcheck, and fewer channels to balance things properly.

 

[Waytootrue]

This happened to me once at a Red Rocks show. Opener was terrible. The crossover between the subs and the speakers were way off (I don't really know how this works) so if the bass played lower than A it would be booming and seriously overpower the mix and completely dropped out if it went any higher. Everything else was too quiet, especially the vocals. Once the main act came on the sound was fine. I don't think they intentionally made the act worse, they were a small act on the same label as the main band, I just think the sound guy was just half ***ing it for the opener because he thought nobody would care.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

We have a sound guy. We bring him on every gig, no matter where it is. This one of the ways we avoid neglect/incompetence/evil intentions from sound people. The other way is good ol' social engineering: When there are house soundpersons, we find them, and express our gratitude in advance for making us sound as good as possible. We introduce Bill The Sound Guy and say "We hope you can spare a few minutes to chat with Bill," thank the person again, and split. Let Bill do and say what he needs to. Nine times out of ten we get good treatment. Not a bad outcome for a few minutes of yakking.

 

[Wanker_Joe]

This is an interesting topic. I noticed last time we played we sounded terrible. However, the band we opened for sounded amazing. The difference? Different genres. We are a primarily bass and drums funk jam kind of band, the band we opened for was a hard core metal group. The sound guy doing the mixing is primarily used to mixing metal, hard core punk and thrash bands. He mixed us with the same kind of sound aesthetic as he does for his usual gigs. The result was guitars and drums up high (especially the guitars), bass, vocals and keys sitting much lower in the mix. This mix fit the headliner perfectly, but completely undermined our sound. Sound guy and I chatted about it over beers after the show.

 

[TigerInATrance]

Back in the days before iPads and hundreds of preset scenes and automation of everything in the sound system, we would set the sound for the headliner and do a simple mix on open channels for the opener. Often there would be no soundcheck for them and we'd make adjustments on the fly to get the best possible sound within the scope of what was there. The other thing to consider is that the headliner will always have mics and gear preset, but the openers will be rolled in and out quickly. I can say that neither myself nor anyone I assisted have ever tanked an opener's mix.

The other thing to consider is that sometimes they will have their own engineers... A whole other set of issues going on there.

 

[madbass6]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

Maybe so.. but then again.
in all fairness to the sound guys out there ( wish I'm not) it could easily be just a cheap excuse for bands that just plan suck ! or not.

 

[brianrost]

The guy mixing the headliner has usually been with them for awhile and knows what they want to sound like. Unless the openers are on every date of a tour, he has no idea what they should sound like esp. withpout a full soundcheck. It gets even worse at festivals when the "soundcheck" is little more than making sure all the mikes have signal and off you go...

 

[LowFactor]

99% of the time the headliners engineer doesn't mix the opener.... that's when we eat dinner. It's normally the systems engineer or monitor tech. The guys that set up the gear but don't normally mix. And sometimes the bands just suck... or don't want to listen... or show up and with 4 guitar amps for one guy and want them all miked cause that's their'sound' even though you only have two channels available..... or they actually get a sound check but spend the entire time trying to get their tracks rig to work and run out of time for anything else.

 

[micguy]

On many multiple bills, the headliners get a sound check, but there isn't time for the openers to have one. That can contribute to this.

Any band worth anything will have enough channels and gear at FOH to do their show well. The opener might get whatever is left over, which might involve compromises.

In some places there are SPL limitations, which have a time/SPL requirement - if you make it X loud, you can only do so for Y minutes - it's a dosage kind of thing. In those situations, you're not going to burn all the loud and long credits you have to spend on the opener - you're going to leave most of it for the headliners. Even if that's not in play legally, there may be limits set by the venue or headliner so people aren't fatigued by the time the headliner goes on. I was one of 2 FOH guys on a multi band bill a couple years ago, and we agreed, as the audience was a bunch of kinds, not to push their ears for the first couple of bands - it was a good decision for a good reason. The opening bands sounded pretty good, but they were young, local amateurs - they were loud enough, just not impressively loud. The headliners were real pros, and yeah, they got loud. If you were at that show, you'd agree that everything made sense.

The best sound I've heard in many years was at a U2 show - at a venue that has a reputation for bad sound. The worst sound I've heard in those same couple of decades was...the opener that night - same PA, same venue, same.... I'm not sure what the issue was, but I was bummed the whole opening set that a band I really wanted to hear was going to play through this...horrid PA. The opening act was a rap act, and honestly I didn't understand a single word they said their whole set. Then U2 came out, and...it was great.

Anyway, there are a lot of reasons why the opening act may not get the same level of treatment that the headliners do. Some make sense, and I'm also sure sometimes there's some sandbagging, or a suck knob that gets turned.

 

[40Hz]

I've known professional soundmen to sometimes refer to opening bands as "soundchecks" and not worry too much about the final result since they're weren't working for the warm up act.

But I'm not aware of any time I knew a soundman to deliberately make an opening band sound bad.

 

[bassbrad]

*

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

Snopes says this is half truth. Generally the problem is not the house engineer not caring or intentionally making the band sound bad but the opening act competing with the PA by having too much stage volume however there is the "ultra rare sound hottie" exception to this rule.

"ultra rare sound hottie" exception implies that some exotic hottie is so attracted to the sound system gear* that it includes the otherwise gross sound engineer to the point that said engineer is so distracted or occupied s/he does not notice the atrocious sound.

*phallic microphones, Giger-esque mic stands, hanging throbbing boxes, those flashing lights, and you're in charge of the board with the knobs and the sliders, oh my-- oh my

Sorry where did i put my whip.

 

[Obese Chess]

A lot of smaller venues have bad acoustics, iffy gear, and not the best sound guys or the sound guy's booth is not in a place conducive to mixing sound. A newly opened local venue is a converted movie theater - bands sounds great where the sound guy is, up two floors in what was the projection room, but not so great on the floor.

I've only ever once heard of a sound guy making a band sound bad on purpose, but you could tell that's what he was doing.

 

[MattZilla]

I went to a big metally show a few years ago (talked into it by my buddy, as I'm not a metal fan). It was a multi-band show, many of the bands well-known. All of the bands had horrible, horrible sound. Not just poorly mixed, but cutting out all or certain frequencies. Just gawdawful. The only band I really wanted to see (Wolfmother) had the the worst sound of all. The vocals in particularly were not just muddy or off balance, they were non-existent. It overall sounded like there was major problems, noticeable by even the most tone deaf of audience, and it seemed like no one cared to try to fix any of it.

The only exception was the headliner (Disturbed). Their sound was dead-on excellent. That singer can wail live. I just figured the headliners have riders in their tour contracts that allow for their own sound team and/or board, etc...(?)

had a similar experience at a Disturbed show over a decade back. The first handful of bands sounded like bands playing music with okay equipment and slightly more experience than our average local hardcore/metal/rock bands. Disturbed sounded just like their album being played in a car with a really nice stock system. Their sound was so good that when their bassist at the time had neither hand on his bass or David hadn't brought his mic up quite quickly enough, their notes still came through crystal-clear.

I'm told that when they play small enough venues that they actually have to play, they do do it well, FWIW.

At our small longtime heavy club, there is common issue with support acts getting thin sound, but it's been accepted for decades as how it is. I suppose it makes bands that haven't "made it" work harder on all aspects of their craft so as to earn good sound?

The "only so many channels" thing makes sense though. Give the hliners what they want/need, the rest get what's left.

 

[Hand slap]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

It happens in Battle Of the Bands, seen it, when I was young too.

 

[The Mogpipe]

There is a city owned park with an amphitheatre on the next block from my house. National tribute bands, AC DC, Floyd, Motown, Beatles, etc. play there in the summer. Often with local/regional opening acts. As I enjoy shows from my front porch, mind you, I can't see anything from there but the whole neighborhood can hear it, I've noticed this phenomenon many times.
Openers sound is typically just bad. Then the clouds clear and the lights come on and everything sounds great for headliners!
' It's good to be the King '. Mel Brooks

 

[Charlzm]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

I have noticed this from time to time.

In smaller venues (and I speak from experience), there is no sound check to speak of. The sound guy will make sure that he has signal and then off you go. The sound guy has no idea how your band is supposed to sound or what the dynamics of your songs will be. Personally, I send my post-FX-and-amp sound to the board so that there will be no mischief with my signal. Just set and forget; I figure it will be easier for the sound man since my levels are consistent from one FX patch to the next. I don't EQ as I figure he knows the room better than me. This tends to mitigate bass disasters, anyway.

In larger venues... who knows? I never played a place bigger than 1500 capacity and, based on audience recordings, it sounded pretty good despite a limited soundcheck.

 

[HolmeBass]

I've been mixing professionally for 17 years in the touring market. Never once been told to make an opener sound bad. General rule of thumb though is they have to be quieter than the headliner. Just because they have good equipment doesn't mean a thing or that they know how to use it. A lot of young bands get in a big room and think they have to crank their amps up. Totally destroying whatever mix was out front. Or that buying a SVT and an 810 will automatically give them a good tone cause that's what their hero uses. Without actually knowing how to use it.

I've noticed when mixing festivals, the first couple of bands are generally a struggle. Too much low end coming from the guitar amps, everything too loud on stage... bass player cranking the lows on their amp and then standing a foot in front of it.... as the day goes on and you get into the better known and more professional acts it gets easier cause they get it. It's a collaboration between everyone and they have their tones dialed in. Not just a bedroom time cranked up.

If all the acts are sharing one console then the headliner gets preference. Everyone else only gets a few channels or can only ride the fader. So the eq that sounds good on one amp might be horrible on the next. If it's a big tour then there are normally separate consoles. But if the openers don't have their own crew then the person mixing is normally a tech or the patch guy, someone lower on the crew than the engineers...that's traditionally how you move up. Start with the openers and if you do a good job then you may stay with them as their career progresses. Also depending on the day most openers get screwed on sound checks. Sometimes just a line check and a prayer before the first song.

This is my understanding and experience. No one sets out to make the openers sound worse, but they are definitely quieter, and they don’t get the sound check that the headliner gets - or they might get none at all.

With digital boards nowadays the “fader only, no EQ” thing has also mostly gone away, but still, without much time, and a less experienced tech, there might not be a whole lot of EQ’ing done anyway.

 

[edro]

Over the years, I don't think I've seen a SMunky intentionally make a band sound bad.
What I HAVE seen is opener gets lsome lights and some dBs, pretty much it, and Light Munky and Slider Munky eats a burger or something.
When main act hits, SMunky is on point most of the time along with Light Munky. With modern desks, SMunky grabs mouse and clicks or punches a button and all the cool stuff kicks in. Same with Light Munky.
I guess it depends on work ethics. I give all my best shot. Some don't. Some don't even give main act their best shot.
My son's group opened for a big country act a few years back that carried their own SMunky. Big Cheeze with the soundco mixed opener and they sounded great. Act Tour Smunky didn't mix "openers". After my son's group, tour SMunky took over and in less than two tunes had the system sounding like whale tish, complete with mondo obnoxious nuclear sub levels.... It was funny to me... Folks were talking about how great the opener sounded and how the main act sucked ass...
Just goes to show, it's always something...

 

[LHbassist]

It has happened, far too many times. Sabotage. It's been going on for decades. So, was the terrible sound, the result of the opener's inability to do a soundcheck? Personally, I can tell you from my own experience... I played bass with a famous rock guitar legend. Many times, we'd literally go directly to the gig from the hotel.. no time at all to do anything. Our 'soundcheck' was to 'make some noise' like an 'overture' so that the sound guy could at least establish peak levels. Everything was usually set up, mic'ed and ready for us to just play. It worked pretty damn good. ANY real, qualified, experienced old school sound person, can get the mix set after one, two, maybe three songs. So, that argument of not checking, is a poor one, in my view. How do you discover a person's INTENT? Lawyers have been trying to do that since there were lawyers. Maybe the sound guy hates the guitarist in the opener, because he hit on his girlfriend in high school. Or maybe he doesn't like the bass players bass, or the drummer's t-shirt. YEAH, it CAN be like that. Maybe he's insecure about the likelihood of the headliner actually being able to sound good... There are really petty and pathetic people in this business, who's ONLY power is over the sound of a band. I'm grateful to not have to meet any of them. The overwhelming majority of sound people I know, are way cool.

 

[AlexBassMP]

I've never been in a situation like that...but in October my band will support an upcoming european band from Switzerland and I dont know what to expect. But I'll stick to my personal "Dealing with sound guys rules"

#1 I introduce myself to them I make sure that I call them by their names.
#2 I use "please" and "thanks" when I ask them for something.
#3 I set my gear the fastest I can and I stay quiet and silent on the stage until they tell me to play something to check levels and eq.

Most of the time sound guys are gratefull when you try to make the things easy for them and they try to do their best job.