Sound guy making making support bands sound worse

[Skullheadrac]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

from my experience, usually it's because the bands don't know how to use their own gear properly. Obviously this isn't always the case, but i've been to A LOT of smaller gigs and 4/5 times, that's the case.
I've also seen one or two bands sound better than all of the other bands.
Usually (not always) the headlining band has the most experience and is the most professional. Of course i've seen headlining bands tank, but i'm speaking generally.

 

[Mr_Moo]

I'm fairly sure that it's largely myth, and often has a great deal to do with limitations. However, I can offer a couple of counter examples from the other side of the desk.

Years ago, as a very inexperienced sound man, I was taken on by a local originals band to be their regular sound (and light) tech. The bass player was a very experienced sound engineer and was able to coach me to an extent.

Early on, we had a support gig in a bar for a new group made up of heavyweights. So they were out to trade on their reputations, had a decent PA and a three man crew if I recall correctly.

They arrive late, we set up the PA fast, they tune the PA in a weird way - and when I express surprise, they cite their long professional experience and my lack thereof, and tell me not to touch the reverb, room EQ, FB EQ or the compressor on the main bus. I'm allowed to ride faders and make limited adjustments to channel EQ.

I mic my stage, my bassist / sound coach gives me a couple of suggestions on how to fix the rig, and we're off. The main act's techs stand right behind me and make sure I don't make the changes that my guy suggested. My guys sound... adequate. The foldback is rubbish and my BL is not happy.

We finish, the tech crew completely retune the system - EQs, main compressor, reverb settings - they're familiar with the room and its horrible acoustics and do this very fast. Dial in the channel EQs. By halfway through the first verse the band sound fantastic.

My BL is angry with me. My bassist /sound coach can see we got sandbagged and says so.

A few gigs later we have a support for one of NZ's biggest acts at a major venue. BL decides he's nervous about me and elects to keep me off sound and use me as his guitar tech. Yeah fine, whatever.

Sound check comes and he sends me out to instruct the sound engineer on what he wants. Engineer quite rightly says that if my BL wants something specific, he should have brought his own engineer. Sends me packing. Proceeds to give my guys a hard time until BL apologises. They end up sounding not stellar, but OK. Naturally that's all my fault. Headliners sounded fantastic.

On the opposite note, this Friday just past, my rock band had a gig. BL messed up the times, which saw me roll in an hour after soundcheck started. They were just finishing drums, so not a biggie. Sound guy/bar owner was stressing about time, so gave us a quick check and then gave the support act a lengthy sound check. Sound out front was good, but all the drummer had in his monitor was guitar. He couldn't hear my bass or the vocals at all. I had bass from my amp and guitar, plus just enough vocal to not be sure if I was singing in tune, and just enough drums to keep time. No adjustments available. (Why does anyone even put electric guitar in monitors? It's usually too loud already).

The common denominators in these train wrecks seem to be relationships and communication.

 

[JKos]

have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

Yep. I was standing right behind the sound booth and the sound guy did absolutely nothing (except talk, talk, talk) while the opening band played. It sounded like crap. At one point, the lead guitarist was soloing and you could not hear him. Very good band, good equipment, great musicians.

Then the national act came on and it sounded magnificent.

I knew the opening band very well (did their first recordings and live sound). They toured with the national act opening for them across the country. I asked them after the show if the knew how they sounded out front. They knew and said they had just accepted it. Sometimes they got zero sound check.

- John

 

[Bassbeater]

In France most bands bring their own sound person. It doesn't matter that this person is typically unfamiliar with the console, FOH and routing. The sound person is kind of like a band member here. I've seen it ruin sound for opening acts where there just is too much authority and not enough experience with many band-provided sound people. It's a real pain and a shame. It's the same gear as the headliner, but it isn't the same engineers running the show. Honestly a couple of times it seemed like the sound crew was babysitting the band's sound person and the show was suffering...

 

[Mr_Moo]

Over the years, I don't think I've seen a SMunky intentionally make a band sound bad.
What I HAVE seen is opener gets lsome lights and some dBs, pretty much it, and Light Munky and Slider Munky eats a burger or something.
When main act hits, SMunky is on point most of the time along with Light Munky. With modern desks, SMunky grabs mouse and clicks or punches a button and all the cool stuff kicks in. Same with Light Munky.
I guess it depends on work ethics. I give all my best shot. Some don't. Some don't even give main act their best shot.
My son's group opened for a big country act a few years back that carried their own SMunky. Big Cheeze with the soundco mixed opener and they sounded great. Act Tour Smunky didn't mix "openers". After my son's group, tour SMunky took over and in less than two tunes had the system sounding like whale tish, complete with mondo obnoxious nuclear sub levels.... It was funny to me... Folks were talking about how great the opener sounded and how the main act sucked ass...
Just goes to show, it's always something...

Haha, yeah I've seen that same thing happen. Followed by soundco owner having to defend his rep and explain that no, his PA is working fine and is not a steaming pile of dung.

 

[dtripoli]

It happens but the various times we've had a sound guy rather than running the board ourselves, it has worked out nicely. Only had 2 bad encounters.
One of the times we had a guitarist that insisted on blasting his on stage mic'ed amp to 10 and was repeatedly told to turn his amp down as it was impossible to get a good FOH mix. All our amps were DI'ed except his had to be mic'ed.
We kept telling him his amp was simply a monitor and not to compete with FOH speakers. Midway through our first set, after getting no help from the guitarist, the sound guy simply threw up is hands and said "Forget it" and left.
Guitarist apparently did not understand process or was just too stubborn to change. The sad part is the sound guy was very good and was a friend of the keyboardist. Sound guy made the trip out to the club, set everything up
and was doing it all for free!
Second time we were told the club had a complete PA system and we'd DI out to FOH. So I brought a little Mark Bass 1x12 combo just as a monitor and DI. They had 2 super sub woofer in the middle of the stage and no IEM's or speaker monitors for the band. I played an entire set and only heard the indistinct subs rumbling. I did not hear a single note I played. I just played from memory and followed along. Later was told by a friend in the audience, FOH was fine.

 

[Bassbeater]

SMunky

With disrespectful monikers like that, I suppose you get what you earn from those around you.

 

[Altitude]

They either don't care, don't have the time or the available channels to make the opener sound their best. Nobody is putting in the effort to make them sound bad on purpose.

In his autobiography, Miles admitted that if an act opening up for him was very good, he might ask the producer or sound team to do whatever they had to so that Miles sounded better than the opener did.

But that's an extreme case. In 95% of cases or more, I'm sure the opener is the last to get any attention from the crew, so the sound team winds up doing the opener's soundcheck _during_ their set.

 

[Bassbeater]

For myself, working on the console and cable side this summer, I can honestly say that the team I worked with did their absolute best to make each band sound as good as possible. That's our job, we take it seriously, and that's why we'll get hired for the same gigs year after year.
The sound crew can make or break you. As a band you really have to do everything you can to get the most out of their gear and experience if you want a good show for the audience.
What I've gathered from working in the various angles of music performance, production, and support, is that the best result arrives if the band's sound person treats the sound crew like house session engineers, touches nothing, and asks them for the results and changes to be made to the sound.
Frequently a working band starts to think of the stage as a hotel, a place to be served and to rate the service. Good sound is always a group effort involving all parties.
Want a good light show for your opening act? Make a setlist with a lighting cue sheet. Buy the sound crew some drinks and let them know you appreciate their work. You'll get a better light show. Show you care and you are more likely to be cared for.

 

[TheReceder]

I've been the warm up act quite often, typically they run our overall volume significantly lower. If they make us sound good but quieter I don't mind. We're just headliner support.

 

[sharpiemarker]

From being a sound tech for an opening act for a few arena tours. I can say the bands I was working for where lucky to get 40 min to set up and sound check. If the headliner needed more time or was having a rough day it came from our setup time. Some days you barely have enough time to mic things and run half a song. I have also been told not to exceed certain volume limits. It’s all part of the job.

In small venues I am a ferm believer in “you can’t polish a turd” I will try as best as I can but sometimes the band is still figuring out there own sonic space. I can only do so much with what I have to work with.

Long story short I doubt any amateur/ pro intentially makes something sound bad

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

I have noticed this. I’ve also heard headliners sound worse than the warm up bands.

The deal with sound companies is they are not mind readers. You want a good job? Send them a copy of your material so they get an idea what you are about, a production sheet showing what your requirements are for mikes and monitors. Include the set list and when and where the solos are going to be, and if there are any other featured musical components, like dynamics, or any other potential pit falls for them. Arrange for a sound check time, be prompt, and don’t play a note until told to.

Once the individual levels are set, play no more than 1 minute of your most complicated rocking song and pay close attention to your monitors. If they need adjusted, one of you at a time make your request respectfully. Play another 30 seconds to make sure it’s all good. Then head off. The whole sound check should only take 15 minutes for a 10 piece band, less for smaller bands.

When the show is over, make sure you thank them.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Don't forget, if the band sounds bad, the sound person looks bad. In other words, if he/she sabotages you, he/she looks bad. I doubt many people here were opening for Miles Davis...

 

[cerrem]

I have run sound for over 30 years and yes there are unspoken rules to not do a great job on the warm-up bands...
It's mostly done by limiting the channels and outboard gear that can be used...since some of these setting have been set during the headliners earlier sound check..
Personally I always did my best for all bands and got in trouble for doing so....
In the 80's when i was playing in the NY, NJ clubs...it wasn't uncommon to become friendly with the sound man a few hours before the show...for example; providing drinks, girls, coke, pot....ect.... or all the above to the sound crew would usually ensure you got one hell of an incredible mix.... LOL

 

[Don Hergert]

This stuff about the sound people and the warm-up bands being support for the big band is way off base... In reality the whole performing and production team should be there to make a great audience experience, without prejudice for one band or another.

As a person buying a ticket or paying a cover charge or buying goods in support of the event, I want to know that the audience experience is 100% worth paying for, not just the headliner. I wouldn't want to attend an event where that wasn't the case.

And as a person playing in a band for an event, I want to know that the whole performing and production team focus is on the audience experience, not on trying to synthetically make one performer or band stand out.

In my performing experience, where I've encountered a lot of different production teams, none of the sound team related issues were intentional, thankfully, and there has always been a sense of "let's make this a great show for the people out there".

No money is worth being part of a team where that is not the focus.

 

[edro]

With disrespectful monikers like that, I suppose you get what you earn from those around you.

I don't find it disrespectful nor has it had any effect on what I have 'earned from those around me.' I refer to myself as SMunky on occasion, short for Slider Munky. Never took a swing at myself for it... I've had cool sounding technical titles over the years... I like Slider Munky... Fun to say to someone else with some kind of whizbang title, "I'm just the Slider Munky, I'm not in charge of anything."

...and your nick is "Bassbeater"? I find that funny too...in a good way.

 

[clayworx]

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

Most touring acts mid level

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

I can only say from the 1-

99% of the time the headliners engineer doesn't mix the opener.... that's when we eat dinner. It's normally the systems engineer or monitor tech. The guys that set up the gear but don't normally mix. And sometimes the bands just suck... or don't want to listen... or show up and with 4 guitar amps for one guy and want them all miked cause that's their'sound' even though you only have two channels available..... or they actually get a sound check but spend the entire time trying to get their tracks rig to work and run out of time for anything else.

Yeah

Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?

I think it's all in the contract.

 

[hbarcat]

As a sound guy, myself, I will attest to the fact that making a band sound good is a lot of work and it takes some experience and know how to get the most out of each band.

Realistically, the headliner is going to get the most attention from the sound guy and might even have their own (well paid) sound guy compared to the opening acts (which is often just a hired hand who may not even know what they're doing.

I really don't believe that there is a plot among venues to purposely make the supporting bands sound crappy.

 

[JimmyM]

As a sound guy, myself, I will attest to the fact that making a band sound good is a lot of work and it takes some experience and know how to get the most out of each band.

Realistically, the headliner is going to get the most attention from the sound guy and might even have their own (well paid) sound guy compared to the opening acts (which is often just a hired hand who may not even know what they're doing.

I really don't believe that there is a plot among venues to purposely make the supporting bands sound crappy.

No. It's a plot among headliners' road managers. Not all...just some. Saw the Police do it bigtime to a local band that opened for them in 1980.

 

[Phil508]

*
Snopes says this is half truth. Generally the problem is not the house engineer not caring or intentionally making the band sound bad but the opening act competing with the PA by having too much stage volume however there is the "ultra rare sound hottie" exception to this rule.

"ultra rare sound hottie" exception implies that some exotic hottie is so attracted to the sound system gear* that it includes the otherwise gross sound engineer to the point that said engineer is so distracted or occupied s/he does not notice the atrocious sound.

*phallic microphones, Giger-esque mic stands, hanging throbbing boxes, those flashing lights, and you're in charge of the board with the knobs and the sliders, oh my-- oh my

Sorry where did i put my whip.

Never saw this hottie around my board.
I was asked to make openers not sound as good. I told him I will mix all equally , I just knew the headliner a little better (small gigs less than 1000 people)