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Sound guy making making support bands sound worse

#61
One of the oldest foh excuses was 'I don't change board settings after the headliner has soundchecked'. That's crap now, cause you just save it, and do another soundcheck.
I've been asked at least a hundred times to sabotage the opening act. I refuse...loudly. I'm hired by the promoter to give the best sound I can.
Some contracts limit what the opening acts can use- no back lighting, no moving heads etc. If it's written in I abide, if it's not, then back to- the best show possible.
One big act I know(ironically much bigger than the headliner now) did a coast to coast tour with no monitors.
It's bullsh*t school yard politics usually brought on by insecure people with a star complex.
 
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#62
I used to roadie for national touring headliners in Australia and the support act always had only a portion of the lighting rig for their set. That was always a given.

For sound, they had a limited number of leftover channels on the desk and rarely had any kind of sound check. The headliner would have a full sound check, a sound guy who knew the desk, the PA, the band, their stage gear etc etc and would have them pretty much dialed in for the show and these channels were designated "don't touch" for the support act.

The support act usually had either the sound rigger to mix them (who didn't know the band most of the time) or their own sound guy (who usually didn't know the desk) who had to scramble to get the guitars, drums, bass and keys sorted very quickly for a 30-45 minute set without touching the main EQ. At least their vocal mics usually sounded good.

I know of some instances where there were no spare channels so the support act could use the channels but were not allowed to touch each channel EQ. Not good if your amp had a very different sound.

These days there's no excuse to stop the support from using any of the main channels as you can save the desk settings after soundcheck.

I've never known anyone to deliberately ruin a support acts sound.
 
#63
I wouldn't say it's intentional, but I think metal struggles with this a lot because the shows tend to stack as many bands together as possible leaving very little time to sound check each band. Watching our last show back from FoH, our lead guitarist and I were completely inaudible. With three guitars we struggle a lot to get a decent mix between all three of them.

Of course, if your job is to do sound for a ton of small time bands multiple times a week, I can imagine you stop caring about each band being great.
 
#67
@lacesoutdom , reading between the lines it sounds that you were a member of this (amazing) opening act and that you felt sabotaged by the sound guy, am I correct?

If yes, there are 3 possibilities:

1. You are correct, you play in this fantastic band and the soundman is a dud or worst an a hole.

2. You are delusional like most mediocre musicians, your band sounded the way it always sound (bad) and the sound guy was just doing his job as he did for the main band.

3. You are partially right, the soundguy sucked but your band wasn't that great either.

I am a bassplayer and a sound guy and I tell you, there are a lot more really bad musicians out there than really bad soundguys. But let's say that if you played in that band you would not have enough objectivity on this matter. A little bit like when everyone around you is telling you that you are dating a horrible person but you keep telling them they are wrong and she/he is actually a wonderful person (most likely not)
 
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#68
Frenchy-Lefty said:
@lacesoutdom , reading between the lines it sounds that you were a member of this (amazing) opening act and that you felt sabotaged by the sound guy, am I correct?

If yes, there are 3 possibilities:

1. You are correct, you play in this fantastic band and the soundman is a dud or worst an a hole.

2. You are delusional like most mediocre musicians, your band sounded the way it always sound (bad) and the sound guy was just doing his job as he did for the main band.

3. You are partially right, the soundguy sucked but your band wasn't that great either.

I am a bassplayer and a sound guy and I tell you, there are a lot more really bad musicians out there than really bad soundguys. But let's say that if you played in that band you would not have enough objectivity on this matter. A little bit like when everyone around you is telling you that you are dating a horrible person but you keep telling them they are wrong and she/he is actually a wonderful person (most likely not)
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Actually no, usually ive been pretty happy with my sound, purely because i expect the worse and when its decent its actually nice surprise.

This was just a reminder really from previous gigs, i recently saw incubus play in the UK, and the support act ECCA Vandal, although completely unknown to me, i researched a day or so before the show. shes a screamy/energetic rock solo act and she sounded pretty good.

Live i was mid way back, centre of stage, perfect conditions, she had a backing drummer, bass/synth/singer and guitarist/synth/singer, her vocals were spot on, mix wise anyway. each guitar/bass had zero vocals coming through the mix, you could see they were singing as the mic stands were on a right angle from the stage, you could barely hear the instruments apart from a wall of sound from the synth every now and again, anytime there was a guitar riff, or solo it was pretty difficult to make it out.

Ive been to gigs purely for the support acts multiple times, and the sound just sucked, thin guitars, bass too loud, drums are all drums no cymbals, and this cant be down to "they must be crap" because ive heard it when great international band supporting another international band... like a few people have said, there must be lack of care for the support acts, perhaps im overly critical, ive got an education in sound and its one of the biggest loves in my life, maybe normal folks there have no opinion of what good sound is and it doesn't affect the show or the experience they've had that evening?
 
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#69
In the early 80s I ran lights and roadied for now megadeth bass player David Ellefson’s high school days band,we played about a 150 mile radius of our SW MN area, and we’re almost always the warm up. One of the bands was one of Minnesota’s big acts at the time and we opened for them quite a few times, and after reading the post here ide have to say that happened every time we played, after a few times we started to complain but to no avail.
 
#70
I, too, have seen both. Some years ago I saw YES with opener Styx at a certain concert venue in NH. Styx' sound was crystal clear, really really good. YES was muddy, and very poor. Naturally, I was there to hear Squire. His bass was nearly inaudible due to the subs thumping out the bass drum, etc. I was pissed, to say the least. All I can imagine was that the guy behind the desk had an agenda.

Went to see Tower of Power and a local Boston band (can't remember the name) and the local band's sound was AWFUL. ToP was excellent. Sometimes, of course, its the venue.... Hockey arenas aren't concert halls. I took my son to see Rush at an *arena* and I was ready to leave a half hour into the show. Could barely hear Geddy amongst the noise. Sometimes I really want to go to the desk and ask the A1 to take off his headphones so he can hear the mess we're hearing, LOL.

This is NOT to bash the FOH folks! I am sure most of you do the best you can, but surely you can understand the frustration we feel when the band(s) we paid dearly to hear sound like ****.
 
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#72
A great many years ago, the Canadian band The Tragically Hip opened for Rush in Rush's home town (the venue was the late Maple Leaf Gardens hockey arena in Toronto, Canada, for those of you living under a rock).

The "Hip", can be a great live band for the most part. But they are an acquired taste, to say the least. I'm okay with them. I don't own any of their albums, but if they com on the radio, I generally won't change the station unless asked to do so.

My guitarist (whom I went with) HATES them. Nay- he LOATHES THEM.

Even though Rush gave them a FULL SOUND CHECK (which they've always done whenever there was an opening act), and they performed REALLY WELL, they were LOUDER than Rush. And I mean A LOT LOUDER, as in "metal-loud-your-head-is-gonna-blow-off" sense of the word (and they're just a typical rock and roll, two guitar, bass, drums, singer band). Loud enough that I NEEDED to wear my hearing protection for the Hip, but actually didn't need it for Rush (a rarity!).

Rush's sound was almost "album quality", whereas the "Hip" sounded like a garage band (mix was okay, but like I said, just TOO LOUD).
 
#74
jeffbrown said:
I took my son to see Rush at an *arena* and I was ready to leave a half hour into the show. Could barely hear Geddy amongst the noise. .
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I tend to agree.

Rush has had some interesting sound quality issues in some venues. Not sure if it's the venue or the "I've been with the band since 1975, so I KNOW what they are SUPPOSED TO sound like" mentality).

On the last two tours they did (Time Machine and ARF40), the first half of each show sounded rather "off"- something not quite right and indistinct. But once the second set kicked in, the issue (whatever it was) disappeared and they sounded "album quality" once again.

Saw them in the early 90's (see comment about the opening band) and at that time, the sound was killer!

BTW, if any of my friends wanted to hear what later Rush really sounded like live, I play them the R30; Rush in Rio DVD. It is plagued with all sorts of sonic nightmares, but sounds pretty "real" by a venue standpoint; VERY FOH, IMHO!
 
#75
Don Hergert said:
It's a very fine line between sabotage and low give-a-crap factor... In many cases, the only difference is intent. If it's not in writing, how does someone judge intent?
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Humans have developed amazing resources for gauging the motivations of other humans. Determining someone's intent by observing their attitude, words and actions is a job we were all born to. Gotta watch out for people who tell you to switch off that mechanism. They are, in my experience, up to no good.
 
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#77
I think it is more of an extremely low givashititus level... As I said before, some just toss em some whites and some dBs.

I've seen multiple 'attention competitions' between a generic opener and a bacon cheeseburger the size of a hubcap with a bucket of fries... Travel, load-in, set, cable, line/sound check, etc., have already happened...
Vittles!
 
#78
Don Hergert said:
It's much easier to assume intent than to prove it.

I'm not saying that intent doesn't ever exist, but accusing someone of intentionally sabotaging a gig, and having to prove it in court due to a libel suit, can be very time consuming and expensive.
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That's a false dichotomy. The methods of assessing intent are more than only assumption or proof. Proof? If our ancestors waited for proof that another person meant to hit him in the head with a rock and take his things, they wouldn't be around long.

We make complex, high-speed judgments about people we meet. You know if a guy is phoning it in. Well, the one writer from Forbes didn't but in ancient times that guy would have been lunch for getting it wrong.
 
#80
lacesoutdom said:
Question to all really, sound guys, bands and audience members. have you ever been at a gig, and the first support band sound was shocking, you have a look, their gear is decent, good instruments, but the sound is way off, either the EQ or even panning issue?

I've never done professional live sound, and i dont know if its a 'thing' that sound guys are told to do, or elect to do it themselves, but is there an agenda that the sound guy will make the support acts sound worse than they really are?

or am i over thinking it, perhaps the support acts havent had a good sound check, or one at all?
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seen it happen time and time again... my band and myself try to make it a point to find the sound guy and show some respect since he or she is the guy running the sound and can make you sound not so well.. sometimes we go as far as tipping him separate before we play. I have played shows where we don't get a sound check but all the bands before or after do.. now my band we take pride in fast set up and tear down time.. so I know were not taking but 5 min to get completely set up. drums and all.. then yet ive played to where we are the only band who gets a decent one,
 
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