Double Bass Soundmen Frustration

[drurb]

Les, you're right: People generally set out to do a bad job on purpose.

Not sure I understand, Sam. I wasn't suggesting that people set out to do a bad job. Seems there was some misunderstanding of my question. I'll try again, in case there was.

The sound engineer gets a feed from your bass. He/she has to listen to that feed and place it properly in the mix. I simply didn't see how knowing that the feed comes from an SM-57 (or any other specific mic) helps the engineer to do meaningfully better.

I do understand that, if the mic is a standard and known quantity, then it says to the sound engineer that a poor result can't be blamed on the transducer. If the engineer is lazy and just doesn't care, then seeing the SM-57 might spark him/her to rise to the occasion and get it right knowing that no one will buy that he was fed a poor signal. For the sound engineer who is competent and cares, then I'd think it wouldn't make much difference what transducer is in use, so long as it's of good quality.

 

[MR PC]

If you are going to FOH in an venue with unknown sound parameters, the fdeck and Countryman DI with a pickup that works for your touch.

Depending on the sound system and the room, most mics will have varying degrees signal delay by the time you hear it from the backs of the mains, add the delay and phase issues of any onstage monitoring/foldback, you've got three or four versions of the note floating around the room.

It's not always the sound guy's fault.

 

[drurb]

If you are going to FOH in an venue with unknown sound parameters, the fdeck and Countryman DI with a pickup that works for your touch.

Depending on the sound system and the room, most mics will have varying degrees signal delay by the time you hear it from the backs of the mains, add the delay and phase issues of any onstage monitoring/foldback, you've got three or four versions of the note floating around the room.

It's not always the sound guy's fault.

Very true and you sure aren't likely to be hearing what the audience hears.

 

[paulears]

I play in a 60s tribute band. Guitar, Bass, Drums and Keys - and importantly we all sing harmonies. We try to recreate the original band as closely as we can. When we have to use unknown sound companies and engineers, it fills us with dread. Worse are those that let us do the soundcheck and after we finish, they patch in a compressor to every input, and shove the masters to the end stops. They start the ch, ch, check and try to squeeze more ooomph from the monitors and FOH. We walk on stage, and on the prerecorded intro announcement start the set with one note and a vocal harmony intro. The first bass note I play (at soundcheck finger twang) makes my guts shake like a nuclear attack! The keyboard player has a volume pedal and when he presses it, the limiter stops it getting louder. We hate these. For Guns n Roses, maybe, but for us, it's meant to be light. They're not rubbish engineers, they probably get great sounds for heavy bands. For us, the idea of a mic on every drum, gated and compressed makes me smile. We don't need or want compressors, and we don't want cymbals that slice your head off, and kicks that shake your stomach contents!

 

[Floyd Eye]

The very obvious solution is to have your own permanent soundguy.

 

[blindeddie]

i played a gig last saturday where i had a nice sound onstage, not too loud or boomy and no feedback... until the sound guy got ahold of me. there was something weird going on with the monitors. and I ended up fighting feedback all night. then the sound guy told me to cut 160 hertz... i'm like, "160hz??? all i've got is bass, mid and treble? and it sounded fine up here before?"

 

[skunky33]

Yeah, everybody feels your pain on this. My attitude is never fight with the spund guy, you don't know what he's hearing, you're at his mercy.

My attitude is if people are liking it, it's good, even if the sound guy has totally destroyed the beautifully crafted and totally effective signal I sent his way.

Yep, I learned my lesson probably 10 years ago. I remember playing a show. The sound guy was a little arrogant, like he used to do sound for Dokken or some sh*t. This touring band was the main act. It some festival like "Corn Days" or something. They were super cocky and sounded like some Creed wanna be act, total posers. They were tight though and sounded fine. The lead singer had a problem and started in on this 55 year old sound guy, with extreme animosity "Is this your first time? do you know what monitors are? These things on the the stage...yeah, turn those up so I can hear *** I'm doing..f'n amateur" The sound guy turned to me smiled and in about 2 seconds made the douche sound like he was singing through a megaphone with delay or something. I couldn't stop laughing. The monitors must have sounded great because he was cock rocking and hip thrusting, having a great time.

 

[DB Slidefunk]

I hate it when sound engineers feel the need to push the PA to the absolute limit before feedback and distortion. Louder is not always better unless your a metal band, even then maybe not.

 

[paulears]

We do try to have our own sound man, but good ones are hard to find (and keep). Oddly, finding them for prestige gigs abroad, with flights and hotels is easy. Finding one for small gigs with maybe a four hour drive isn't so easy - and of course, adding an extra mouth often prices out a gig, unless the band take a cut to fund the sound man.

 

[Ric Vice]

If you are going to FOH in an venue with unknown sound parameters, the fdeck and Countryman DI with a pickup that works for your touch.

Depending on the sound system and the room, most mics will have varying degrees signal delay by the time you hear it from the backs of the mains, add the delay and phase issues of any onstage monitoring/foldback, you've got three or four versions of the note floating around the room.

It's not always the sound guy's fault.

+1 It truly isn't always the engineers fault.

What I was considering, is an inexperienced sound man, who lives mostly in the, country rock, indie rock, pop rock, hard rock, heavy metal domains, with only occasional forays into Jazz, mostly because those are the predominant forms of music now, doesn't have the same ears as someone who works lots of shows where Jazz is played.

Under those conditions, he would be dealing with microphones and instruments that are indigenous to those musics. Moving over to amplifying instruments within a more subtile style of music i.e. Jazz, he could be unfamiliar with the devices that are used for that style, or even how that style of music is supposed to sound without additional amplification.

Under that rather specific set of circumstances, using a more conventional microphone like the SM 57, he could draw on his experience using a microphone that is less sensitive, and therefore less prone to feed back than a condensers like the DPA and AMT's.

Now whether or not this makes any sense or not I don't know. The vast majority of sound engineers I've worked with are pretty savvy, for the most part, but even the best of them can get thrown a curveball once and a while. Unfortunately, their day to day existence relies on their ability to mix really loud bands on the fly.

Ric

 

[karl_em_all]

Yep, I learned my lesson probably 10 years ago. I remember playing a show. The sound guy was a little arrogant, like he used to do sound for Dokken or some sh*t. This touring band was the main act. It some festival like "Corn Days" or something. They were super cocky and sounded like some Creed wanna be act, total posers. They were tight though and sounded fine. The lead singer had a problem and started in on this 55 year old sound guy, with extreme animosity "Is this your first time? do you know what monitors are? These things on the the stage...yeah, turn those up so I can hear *** I'm doing..f'n amateur" The sound guy turned to me smiled and in about 2 seconds made the douche sound like he was singing through a megaphone with delay or something. I couldn't stop laughing. The monitors must have sounded great because he was cock rocking and hip thrusting, having a great time.

Never give the sound guy any sh!t. My own approach is to ask him/her how they want to set it up and just roll with how they want to do it. They control your band's suck button.

 

[MR PC]

The industry standard for a long time has been the Countryman DT 85, most reliable sound technicians carry them in their kits. It's a simple box that always works. There are a host of other new ones as well. I just know that the Countryman plays well with Walter's amplifiers.

It's true the Countryman works real well with the WW. I tried using a passive Radial for a while and recently went back to the Countryman. ( I own both) It's just better for some reason. Setting the out put of the amp to 'pre eq" always works best and generally makes sound people happy. That way your onstage eq is independent from FOH. Set pre level, and control onstage volume with the master volume. It's important to bring your own DI, ime.

 

[MR PC]

And the AMT mic has pretty specific limits in term of being useful as a walk on FOH piece of gear. Great sound when it's great, and really bad when it's bad. If you are having many bad experiences, it might be time to compromise the love for the AMT, and find a more reliable, even generic pickup.

 

[Ric Vice]

And the AMT mic has pretty specific limits in term of being useful as a walk on FOH piece of gear. Great sound when it's great, and really bad when it's bad. If you are having many bad experiences, it might be time to compromise the love for the AMT, and find a more reliable, even generic pickup.

+1 It really works better into an amplifier, than it does FOH.
I used mine quite a lot when I first bought it, and liked the sound coming of the microphone into the amp. Unfortunately, on the occasions where I attempted to use it FOH, it sounded great, but it was very hard for the various sound men working the board to isolate it from all the instruments that were close to me on the stage. It's to much of a good thing.

Ric

 

[MR PC]

Then some doofus says he can't get gain before feedback in FOH. Or can't get a signal from the direct out of the Woods.

The WW has a toggle switch for the direct output. PRE eq, POST Eq, and OFF.

Which setting are you using?

If it's in the OFF position, FOH gets no signal.

If it it's in PRE , the signal in FOH is only effected by the GAIN setting. You should set GAIN as a constant and control your onstage volume with MASTER VOLUME. This gives FOH a constant signal, and makes their job easier. They like this. The audience likes this.

If it's in the POST position, all of your eq is included in the FOH. This makes FOH much harder for the soundperson, and any eq and gain changes you make effect the FOH. This is fighting the soundperson trying to do their job. They hate it, The audience suffers for it.

Understand?

 

[MikeCanada]

Working with the same sound guy, be it "yours" or at a venue you regularly play at is often the best way to get good sound. Regardless, the sound guy's pay cheque and return business are his main concerns. That might mean you don't get exactly what you want, but to his ears and the people that keep him in the black, he is trying.

A simple and flat signal tends to yield the best results. A highly EQ'ed signal can work well in one venue (often your rehearsal space) and be completely wrong for another venue. Short and vaguely specific communications like "I've got a pre-eq send on my amp" or "I use a mic that often needs the low mids rolled out" gives them an idea of what they're dealing with. If your setup is prone to problems, (an omnidirectional mic that picks up the whole band, a really hot or weak signal, noisy pickup, etc.) do your best to eliminate that before it gets to them. If this means your first choice is a mic, but using a pickup solves the problems in a difficult sound situation, (weird/difficult venue, outdoor gigs, a sound guy that just isn't rocking it) do it. I think we would all agree we would rather have a pretty good sound coming from a pickup instead of a horrible sound coming from a mic, regardless to the reason for it. I know a lot of guys that have two pickups on their bass or a mic and a pickup for this reason.

**I am not suggesting that this is what you are doing, but it happens a lot.** Don't try to play tricks on the sound guy. Adding a filter or EQ after he already processed your signal, intentionally playing softer in sound check and cranking when you hit the stage, or any of the other games that are played does no one any favours. It might make the player feel like they have more control or can "fix" whatever is "wrong" but in my experience, it's the surest way to get rolled out of the mix. He will often be focused on the rest of the band first especially if someone else has done something similar, and then he might come back to you to figure out what you did to him. He might not. He definitely does control the "suck knob" if nothing else.

I completely agree that there are some lemons out there. Even the best sound guys don't care about "your sound" half as much as you do. It's sad, but that's the reality that bassists face. Try your best to work with the sound guy, be as polite as you can and as specific with your constructive criticism as possible, and if it really doesn't work out, don't hire him again/find a different venue.

 

[Ric Vice]

Working with the same sound guy, be it "yours" or at a venue you regularly play at is often the best way to get good sound. Regardless, the sound guy's pay cheque and return business are his main concerns. That might mean you don't get exactly what you want, but to his ears and the people that keep him in the black, he is trying.

I kind of look at it this way. All I'm really responsible for
is my onstage sound for myself. That's my domain, if there's something wrong with the monitor mix, that needs to be addressed, so my bandmates can hear me, that's the sound engineer's domain. FOH is not something I worry about, as I have a quality microphone to send the signal to the board, so the sound engineer can work his magic.

A simple and flat signal tends to yield the best results. A highly EQ'ed signal can work well in one venue (often your rehearsal space) and be completely wrong for another venue. ..........

Absolutely true, I always send the Pre EQ signal to the house. Walter Woods set his amps up so you can do that and it definitely works best.

I completely agree that there are some lemons out there. Even the best sound guys don't care about "your sound" half as much as you do. It's sad, but that's the reality that bassists face. Try your best to work with the sound guy, be as polite as you can and as specific with your constructive criticism as possible, and if it really doesn't work out, don't hire him again/find a different venue.

Agreed.

Ric

 

[DB Slidefunk]

To add to the tales of soundman problems. Our 12 piece band just played a really large venue with a big sound system. The stage has about 8 front monitors and a big drum monitor at the back. Everything sounded pretty much ok on stage at soundcheck. Then a DJ goes on and as soon as I unmute the bass it howls terribly. I can feel the mic'ed up kick drum vibrating the back of my bass and I end up using my notch filter and hugging the bass between long notes. Arrrrgh!

How can it all sound ok at soundcheck then you go live and it's a mess? We are the only band and it's a pro venue that has some big names play there. I keep telling the guy on the desk by the stage to take the kick out of the monitors.

I guess the only way to get a good sound sometimes is to bring your own engineer. It's a pattern that a lot of venues seem to follow... push the bass to the absolute limit disregarding sound quality. The whole building is literally shaking from the DJ before we go on and is so sub heavy you can't hear the notes but your stomach feels them.

 

[Dave Irwin]

Yup, there is usually a reason soundmen are soundmen..
The only thing I've to mitigate is to ask them to kill the house sound until the sound on stage is set. Once the stage sound from your amp and or monitors is acceptable, ask the sound man to slowly bring up the house as much as necessary trying to match your stage sound. This has worked at least on occasion

 

[DB Slidefunk]

Ive never considered asking them to put FOH up later. I feel like most venues won't be keen as they want to sound check quickly and are most concerned with FOH.

One thing I learned is ask the sound man to keep to roll the bottom end off the kick drum stage mix. And don't forget to ask for a more high mid and treble bass mix on stage for the bass.

Were at the same venue again in November so be interesting to see how it goes.