True, and also hard for them to control feedback from the monitors. Oddly, when I'm using a system controlled from the stage and operated by myself and/or the other musicians, this is not a problem. On my regular gigs I can go straight out of the AMT pre and into the house system (usually a 3 band EQ) roll off some lows and boost some mids, and I've got a great sound in 30 seconds. It still puzzles me why this is not the consistent result with soundmen. Some get it great right off, and some never do. Again, back to the risk mitigation devices....
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Double Bass Soundmen Frustration
- Thread starter Bassistom
- Start date
True, and also hard for them to control feedback from the monitors. Oddly, when I'm using a system controlled from the stage and operated by myself and/or the other musicians, this is not a problem. On my regular gigs I can go straight out of the AMT pre and into the house system (usually a 3 band EQ) roll off some lows and boost some mids, and I've got a great sound in 30 seconds. It still puzzles me why this is not the consistent result with soundmen. Some get it great right off, and some never do. Again, back to the risk mitigation devices....
Yes, that is my experience, but as in a previous post, when the sound is run from the stage, the AMT has been fine (straight from the AMT pre or out of the WW). Many sound guys also get it right, but it's frustratingly hit and miss. As for the pickup, that's why I've got the Realist and blend it in when there is insufficient gain before feedback.
Yep, know it well. I first send the 'pre'. If that doesn't work, I offer up the 'post' and/or blend in the Realist. If that doesn't work, I send them the 'off' and ask them to mic the cabinet.
Still, as in previous posts, straight out of the AMT works when I'm setting the gain and EQ, and also for many sound guys. It's the others that I'm dealing with here.
Yes, I understand that well, it's just good working practice. I also worked as a recording engineer for years and appreciate the diplomacy and transparency needed on both sides of the glass. As for regular venues, these are not issues. At many I or my fellow performers do the sound, no problems. At several there is a regular sound man, no problems. At one I play 2-3 times a year with a boogie woogie R&B pianist, the stage volume is ear-ringing huge, but no feedback, and an appropriate sound in FOH.
The cases this post addresses are those where a known good signal goes out, and no sound or roaring feedback comes back. Usually these are one nighters, and I'm not in a position to rectify a human resources issue.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I've run into several sound guys who've never seen a double bass before; their experience is limited to electric bass.
I usually act dumb and ask sound guys to "share their expertise" with me; what can I learn from them about the best way to reproduce double bass in FOH? Their answers, or lack thereof, tell me what I'm in for.
Ahh, back to this one again. Just played a smallish outdoor festival, lots of bands so only time for a line check. I turned up with realist lifeline and Headway 2 all ready EQ'd from the last gig. The stage sound guy is pretty drunk and hard to talk to. He wants me to plug into an enormous ampeg stack which has a DI to the PA. I keep saying my bass will howl if I go stand anywhere near that, I've got a nice preamp and can give you a good DI feed. He wont have it so it's either throw a fit and demand it my way or go with him as there's no time to waste.
The PA is really sub heavy and when we start playing it's like my D&G strings aren't working. All sub bass boom and anything above a certain frequency just not there. Probably my worst experience and this is really just a rant rather than seeking advice.
To top it off he comes up to me at the end and says "nice gig, you made my job really easy" arrrrrghhhhhhh..........
But at least for most of our gigs now we have a really professional engineer that loves our band. Thank god. I'm so fed up with engineers messing up a perfectly good DI feed.
The PA is really sub heavy and when we start playing it's like my D&G strings aren't working. All sub bass boom and anything above a certain frequency just not there. Probably my worst experience and this is really just a rant rather than seeking advice.
To top it off he comes up to me at the end and says "nice gig, you made my job really easy" arrrrrghhhhhhh..........
But at least for most of our gigs now we have a really professional engineer that loves our band. Thank god. I'm so fed up with engineers messing up a perfectly good DI feed.
You definitely had all the right tools to do the gig.
Well, It's hard to say what I would have done in that particular situation. One thing though, did you consider using the EDB-2 to bypass the EQ on the head and go right into the power amp? Just a thought. That may have helped you out a little, but you never know. Hindsight is always 20/20, and me Monday morning quarterbacking you're situation isn't going to change what happened. Sometimes I poke the Bear and other times I just steer clear of it, depending on how big the bear is, and if I feel lucky on that particular day.
Sounds like he had you running into a high pass filter or forgot to sent you into the mains. Rant all you need to, that's what were here for. Commiseration is a good thing
He was obviously having a brain fart.
That's a good thing, now you only have to put up with guys like the occasionally.
Thanks for the support, I just listened back to my zoom H1 recorder that was sat beside the sound desk. Mwwwwooooump Mwwwwwouuump, it's too much bass even for a drum n bass night. I think I will keep it as the worst ever example of sound engineering. There is so much bass boom you can't really hear what notes I'm playing!
Update on this project, spurred on by three gigs last week:
Wednesday: Large venue (2K people), piano, bass, drums, reeds, vocals, stage with several monitor mixes, midsize FOH system (mostly Meyer). Despite sending a stage plot and my amp (with instructions) in advance (my flight landed at 4:40 PM, original 7:00 PM downbeat pulled in to 6:00 PM), the soundman decides to take the XLR output of my Raven (only used when I need three inputs to the Woods) instead of the 1/4" out of the Woods (despite the explicit instructions). I'm hustling to get set up, I have to ask him twice to follow the instructions and provide a DI, and he gives me grief. Once we get the Countryman plugged in, he "can't get a signal". I advise that the output is known to be comparatively low and that he may have to open up the trim. He responds by mic'ing the cabinet. No time or energy to hash it out, the show goes on, the sound is okay (i.e., no roaring feedback) but no one can tell if the bass is coming through the system or just from my amp, and I'm fighting to get heard all night.
Thursday: Small venue, 200 people, very reflective stage/dance floor area (but what a view!). Piano, bass, drums. Three monitor mixes. Soundman gives me a DI (a Radial), but gets tremendous hum and very little signal, winds up mic'ing the cabinet. The monitor mix was horrible, I kept asking him to turn down the piano, he'd turn it down, then it would somehow creep back up. Horrible sound all night. The trio is bummed.
SO, I'm worried that there is a problem with my system, and spend Friday AM going through it. All is good, signal not as hot as I'd like, but enough to work with, clean and clear, no hum.
Saturday: Back at one of my favorite venues, 200 people, small stage, two monitor mixes. Piano, bass, drums. Soundman gives me a Whirlwind Director. I ask the him how the signal looks, he says a little low but fine, and we get a great sound in 2 minutes. Sound gets better and better through two sets. Everyone is happy.
SO, back to the old competence question. I'm really sick of being in this position. I'm going to acquire and compare those three DIs. Stay tuned.
Wednesday: Large venue (2K people), piano, bass, drums, reeds, vocals, stage with several monitor mixes, midsize FOH system (mostly Meyer). Despite sending a stage plot and my amp (with instructions) in advance (my flight landed at 4:40 PM, original 7:00 PM downbeat pulled in to 6:00 PM), the soundman decides to take the XLR output of my Raven (only used when I need three inputs to the Woods) instead of the 1/4" out of the Woods (despite the explicit instructions). I'm hustling to get set up, I have to ask him twice to follow the instructions and provide a DI, and he gives me grief. Once we get the Countryman plugged in, he "can't get a signal". I advise that the output is known to be comparatively low and that he may have to open up the trim. He responds by mic'ing the cabinet. No time or energy to hash it out, the show goes on, the sound is okay (i.e., no roaring feedback) but no one can tell if the bass is coming through the system or just from my amp, and I'm fighting to get heard all night.
Thursday: Small venue, 200 people, very reflective stage/dance floor area (but what a view!). Piano, bass, drums. Three monitor mixes. Soundman gives me a DI (a Radial), but gets tremendous hum and very little signal, winds up mic'ing the cabinet. The monitor mix was horrible, I kept asking him to turn down the piano, he'd turn it down, then it would somehow creep back up. Horrible sound all night. The trio is bummed.
SO, I'm worried that there is a problem with my system, and spend Friday AM going through it. All is good, signal not as hot as I'd like, but enough to work with, clean and clear, no hum.
Saturday: Back at one of my favorite venues, 200 people, small stage, two monitor mixes. Piano, bass, drums. Soundman gives me a Whirlwind Director. I ask the him how the signal looks, he says a little low but fine, and we get a great sound in 2 minutes. Sound gets better and better through two sets. Everyone is happy.
SO, back to the old competence question. I'm really sick of being in this position. I'm going to acquire and compare those three DIs. Stay tuned.
Update, spurred on by three gigs last week:
Wednesday: Large venue (2K people), piano, bass, drums, reeds, vocals, stage with several monitor mixes, midsize FOH system (mostly Meyer). Despite sending a stage plot and my amp (with instructions) in advance (my flight landed at 4:40 PM, original 7:00 PM downbeat pulled in to 6:00 PM), the soundman decides to take the XLR output of my Raven (only used when I need three inputs to the Woods) instead of the 1/4" out of the Woods (despite the explicit instructions). I'm hustling to get set up, I have to ask him twice to follow the instructions and provide a DI, and he gives me grief. Once we get the Countryman plugged in, he "can't get a signal". I advise that the output is known to be comparatively low and that he may have to open up the trim. He responds by mic'ing the cabinet. No time or energy to hash it out, the show goes on, the sound is okay (i.e., no roaring feedback) but no one can tell if the bass is coming through the system or just from my amp, and I'm fighting to get heard all night.
Thursday: Small venue, 200 people, very reflective stage/dance floor area (but what a view!). Piano, bass, drums. Three monitor mixes. Soundman gives me a DI (a Radial), but gets tremendous hum and very little signal, winds up mic'ing the cabinet. The monitor mix was horrible, I kept asking him to turn down the piano, he'd turn it down, then it would somehow creep back up. Horrible sound all night. The trio is bummed.
SO, I'm worried that there is a problem with my system, and spend Friday AM going through it. All is good, signal not as hot as I'd like, but enough to work with, clean and clear, no hum. *** was the problem the last two nights?
Saturday: Back at one of my favorite venues, 200 people, small stage, two monitor mixes. Piano, bass, drums. Soundman gives me a Whirlwind Director. I ask the him how the signal looks, he says a little low but fine, and we get a great sound in 2 minutes. Sound gets better and better through two sets. Everyone is happy.
SO, back to the old competence question. I'm really sick of being in this position. I'm going to acquire and compare those three DIs. Stay tuned.
Wednesday: Large venue (2K people), piano, bass, drums, reeds, vocals, stage with several monitor mixes, midsize FOH system (mostly Meyer). Despite sending a stage plot and my amp (with instructions) in advance (my flight landed at 4:40 PM, original 7:00 PM downbeat pulled in to 6:00 PM), the soundman decides to take the XLR output of my Raven (only used when I need three inputs to the Woods) instead of the 1/4" out of the Woods (despite the explicit instructions). I'm hustling to get set up, I have to ask him twice to follow the instructions and provide a DI, and he gives me grief. Once we get the Countryman plugged in, he "can't get a signal". I advise that the output is known to be comparatively low and that he may have to open up the trim. He responds by mic'ing the cabinet. No time or energy to hash it out, the show goes on, the sound is okay (i.e., no roaring feedback) but no one can tell if the bass is coming through the system or just from my amp, and I'm fighting to get heard all night.
Thursday: Small venue, 200 people, very reflective stage/dance floor area (but what a view!). Piano, bass, drums. Three monitor mixes. Soundman gives me a DI (a Radial), but gets tremendous hum and very little signal, winds up mic'ing the cabinet. The monitor mix was horrible, I kept asking him to turn down the piano, he'd turn it down, then it would somehow creep back up. Horrible sound all night. The trio is bummed.
SO, I'm worried that there is a problem with my system, and spend Friday AM going through it. All is good, signal not as hot as I'd like, but enough to work with, clean and clear, no hum. *** was the problem the last two nights?
Saturday: Back at one of my favorite venues, 200 people, small stage, two monitor mixes. Piano, bass, drums. Soundman gives me a Whirlwind Director. I ask the him how the signal looks, he says a little low but fine, and we get a great sound in 2 minutes. Sound gets better and better through two sets. Everyone is happy.
SO, back to the old competence question. I'm really sick of being in this position. I'm going to acquire and compare those three DIs. Stay tuned.
You could always buy one of the Sansamp BDDI, or the MXR BASS D.I.+ for when these situations come up. Both of them will allow you to control the output and get at least a better sound than mic'ing a cabinet(which works fine for bass guitar but horrible for double bass).
Reading the posts by Bassistom and AMJBass with their difficulties with sound guys moved me to write this lengthy (too long?!) post This past weekend I played three performances with a Rat Pack show out of England in three different Scottish theatres. It is a wonderful 5-horn, three rhythm band on stage behind the Sinatra/Davis/Martin clones, and we played theatres that ranged in size from 600 to 125. I was able to get excellent sound in all three venues, and in the two larger venues the sound man made a point of coming to me after the show and saying that I had given them the cleanest signal they'd ever gotten from a double bass and it was easy to get a good sound for me. The rest of the guys in the band were also very complimentary about the bass sound they were getting--punchy, clear and a big factor in locking up the time and swing feel. This follows on to two other gigs a few months ago with this show in different venues in which the sound men again took the time to come tell me effectively the same thing.
So, what did I use and what was I doing that resulted in this? First, time and dealing with the sound man. We arrived and began setting up at 4:30 for a 5:00 sound check and a 7:30 curtain. I made a point of letting the sound man hear my acoustic sound and shared with him that I was looking for a tight sound without big fat bottom that would screw up the swing. I showed him my rig and explained that I had a High Pass filter turned on and that the rest of the amp was set flat. Finally, the sound check itself took 60 to 75 minutes for the entire band to get the FOH and the monitor mixes set up the way we wanted them. I sometimes think that a lot of sound troubles come from simply not spending enough time in sound check.
Second, equipment. I'm playing a a LaScala flatback hybrid with a Rev Solo 2 pickup and Evah Pirazzi Weich strings. I run this through an Acoustic Image Focus Series III amp into a Barefaced Bass Midget speaker on the riser behind me on stage even though I'm given a monitor as well. The sound man takes an XLR cable direct to the board from the DI of the Focus. I give the board a post-eq signal but the only thing I do is turn down the treble to 9:00 to kill some string noise, turn on the High Pass filter to about 90 kHz, and bump the bass to about 2:00 to fatten up the sound of the Barefaced Midget a bit. There were at least three monitor mixes at each of the venues, and I get piano, some more of my bass and a touch of the horns in my monitor. The vocalists rely totally on side fills and I can hear enough of them so that I don't need any vocals in the monitor. The rest of the guys in the band hear my rig plus bass in their monitors. I had no feedback problems anywhere even though the sound seemed quite loud to me, and I think big part of this was making sure that the monitor was not on the riser with me, but was sitting on top of a flight case right behind my monitor. When the monitor has been on my riser I have struggled with low boomy feedback in the past.
I attribute a lot of the magic of the good sound to the Rev Solo pickup that I spent a LOT of time fitting until it gives a wonderful, natural sound, and the magic of the AI Focus. The Focus has tons of power and head room, is dead silent, has a wonderful High Pass filter and a clean-as-a-whistle, slightly hot DI. I've used other pre-amps before, especially liking the Headway and the FDeck (I never leave the house without the FDeck since it has always tamed back line amps!), but just don't feel like there is any need for them with the Focus. At least this explains the signal to the board. The Barefaced Midget is also an amazing speaker, although sadly it is not too widely distributed in the U.S. yet. Hopefully, Alex Claber will continue to grow the business so that he can begin to reduce the wait time for his speakers and expand the U.S. distribution.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention that my own playing style is aggressive in that I pull hard on the strings to get as loud and percussive a sound as I can from the bass before any amplification enters the picture. I sometimes wonder if people forget just how loud a bass can be out in front if played hard, and this is an essential element to delivering a good sound from a double bass.
Well, I hope this doesn't come across as bragging although I feel good that I've finally figured out something that is so easy and works so well after trying other approaches. If you haven't had a chance to try one of Rick Jones' Acoustic Image amplifiers, I would urge you to look for an opportunity to do so--they seem to solve so many problems experienced by people not using his gear.
Your mileage may vary of course and thanks for listening.
Erik Hansen
Scotland
So, what did I use and what was I doing that resulted in this? First, time and dealing with the sound man. We arrived and began setting up at 4:30 for a 5:00 sound check and a 7:30 curtain. I made a point of letting the sound man hear my acoustic sound and shared with him that I was looking for a tight sound without big fat bottom that would screw up the swing. I showed him my rig and explained that I had a High Pass filter turned on and that the rest of the amp was set flat. Finally, the sound check itself took 60 to 75 minutes for the entire band to get the FOH and the monitor mixes set up the way we wanted them. I sometimes think that a lot of sound troubles come from simply not spending enough time in sound check.
Second, equipment. I'm playing a a LaScala flatback hybrid with a Rev Solo 2 pickup and Evah Pirazzi Weich strings. I run this through an Acoustic Image Focus Series III amp into a Barefaced Bass Midget speaker on the riser behind me on stage even though I'm given a monitor as well. The sound man takes an XLR cable direct to the board from the DI of the Focus. I give the board a post-eq signal but the only thing I do is turn down the treble to 9:00 to kill some string noise, turn on the High Pass filter to about 90 kHz, and bump the bass to about 2:00 to fatten up the sound of the Barefaced Midget a bit. There were at least three monitor mixes at each of the venues, and I get piano, some more of my bass and a touch of the horns in my monitor. The vocalists rely totally on side fills and I can hear enough of them so that I don't need any vocals in the monitor. The rest of the guys in the band hear my rig plus bass in their monitors. I had no feedback problems anywhere even though the sound seemed quite loud to me, and I think big part of this was making sure that the monitor was not on the riser with me, but was sitting on top of a flight case right behind my monitor. When the monitor has been on my riser I have struggled with low boomy feedback in the past.
I attribute a lot of the magic of the good sound to the Rev Solo pickup that I spent a LOT of time fitting until it gives a wonderful, natural sound, and the magic of the AI Focus. The Focus has tons of power and head room, is dead silent, has a wonderful High Pass filter and a clean-as-a-whistle, slightly hot DI. I've used other pre-amps before, especially liking the Headway and the FDeck (I never leave the house without the FDeck since it has always tamed back line amps!), but just don't feel like there is any need for them with the Focus. At least this explains the signal to the board. The Barefaced Midget is also an amazing speaker, although sadly it is not too widely distributed in the U.S. yet. Hopefully, Alex Claber will continue to grow the business so that he can begin to reduce the wait time for his speakers and expand the U.S. distribution.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention that my own playing style is aggressive in that I pull hard on the strings to get as loud and percussive a sound as I can from the bass before any amplification enters the picture. I sometimes wonder if people forget just how loud a bass can be out in front if played hard, and this is an essential element to delivering a good sound from a double bass.
Well, I hope this doesn't come across as bragging although I feel good that I've finally figured out something that is so easy and works so well after trying other approaches. If you haven't had a chance to try one of Rick Jones' Acoustic Image amplifiers, I would urge you to look for an opportunity to do so--they seem to solve so many problems experienced by people not using his gear.
Your mileage may vary of course and thanks for listening.
Erik Hansen
Scotland
+1 I've also found that getting to the venue early, so that the sound man has time to work with you can work to your advantage. When you are cordial with the person running the board, and show him your setup, it's much easier to get a decent house sound. Since you're going direct from your amp
through a DI and using a pickup to amplify the instrument, feedback isn't as big a problem as it is with microphones. So, as long as you're comfortable with that sound, it's a much easier setup.
Ric
through a DI and using a pickup to amplify the instrument, feedback isn't as big a problem as it is with microphones. So, as long as you're comfortable with that sound, it's a much easier setup.
Ric
I've got monthly volunteer work on the same big digital (like new) board, and wanted you to know...
The sound guys are NOT allowed (at all) to change the presets on the digital board at the venue. Some sound guys are married to existing presets! Our main preset is "band mix" on the 11th setting, and your sound will be limited by the bass channel presets that were already programmed in the board by the top guru/sound guy (while you're plugged into a backline cheap DI, without knobs-which has a cable going into the mix).
Would you like to bring a high-dollar DI box to the venue for some control over your sound other than the knobs on your instrument? Great, and you'd be the first guy I've seen bring his own DI to a gig in this big place.
Or, to put it another way, the sound quality of the guitars or basses on stage are not my fault.
The sound guys are NOT allowed (at all) to change the presets on the digital board at the venue. Some sound guys are married to existing presets! Our main preset is "band mix" on the 11th setting, and your sound will be limited by the bass channel presets that were already programmed in the board by the top guru/sound guy (while you're plugged into a backline cheap DI, without knobs-which has a cable going into the mix).
Would you like to bring a high-dollar DI box to the venue for some control over your sound other than the knobs on your instrument? Great, and you'd be the first guy I've seen bring his own DI to a gig in this big place.
Or, to put it another way, the sound quality of the guitars or basses on stage are not my fault.
There is one big (or small) secret: on 99% of our gigs we DO NOT NEED any PA system and sound guys. The instruments themselfs, or with personal amps, are loud enough to be heard. It used to be that way for decades, until, since the 70's the sound mafia took over and convinced everybody - included musicians!!! - that they need them. This is a huge irony and aesthetical tragedy.
+1 If you can pull that off, it's nice to just play smaller venues, so you don't have to have a P.A. My counter to that is , when you play the larger spaces, you have to have some kind of P.A. support, unless the concert hall has incredible acoustics. Sound thats done correctly, can be an exquisite playing experience.
Ric
