My bass sounds great but the E string is a little anemic . My question: to increase the E string volume should i move the soundpost laterally towards the G string or towards the E string?
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Well, I was hoping that someone else would reply, but, I'll try:
It depends on why the E string sounds flabby, but, all other things being accounted for, I would fudge the soundpost toward the E string, about a millimeter at a time, or less, (particularly the top end) and see if it improves. Slack the strings before moving it, but be careful not to knock it over. You may want to tape a pen to a thin stick and reach in there and carefully mark the current location before trying anything.
Give the instrument time to get used to the new location each time you move it. Don't expect "instantaneous improvements", though they do sometimes happen.
If you have to move the soundpost more than a few millimeters "west", you may have to fit a longer post, as the fit will become increasingly loose in that direction.
It depends on why the E string sounds flabby, but, all other things being accounted for, I would fudge the soundpost toward the E string, about a millimeter at a time, or less, (particularly the top end) and see if it improves. Slack the strings before moving it, but be careful not to knock it over. You may want to tape a pen to a thin stick and reach in there and carefully mark the current location before trying anything.
Give the instrument time to get used to the new location each time you move it. Don't expect "instantaneous improvements", though they do sometimes happen.
If you have to move the soundpost more than a few millimeters "west", you may have to fit a longer post, as the fit will become increasingly loose in that direction.
Yes, the E is a Spirocore Orchestra (others are Spiro Weich) Tomorrow i see my luthier and we'll see what happens if i move the soundpost towards the E string. If that doesn't work i was thinking about increasing the E height and if that doesn't work too, maybe to try a Spiro Stark (and eventually, if there is too difference in tension with the rest of the set, to change the others with spiro reds)
Sounds like a good plan.
As your instrument may have a 107.5cm scale, there may be doubt on which of the plurality of TI strings you're using, for your convenience below an indicative summary:
(Numbers are an indication only, for the indicated scale, estimates exclude stretch.)
As your instrument may have a 107.5cm scale, there may be doubt on which of the plurality of TI strings you're using, for your convenience below an indicative summary:
(Numbers are an indication only, for the indicated scale, estimates exclude stretch.)
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Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
The E string if often weak. One theory is that it may be due to the fact that the body resonance of most basses is well above 41 hz and closer to that of the A string.
In the few years I've been working on basses I've come to see that the post, bridge and bass bar all work together with the post acting like a fulcrum, the
bass bar being a spring (and in a sense like the end of a lever) and the bridge putting it all in motion. Accepting the given that the E string will require the most movement of the top, and of the bass bar, lengthing the 'lever' will facilitate that. Shortening the 'lever' will hinder that.
I've found that moving the post out towards the outside of the G foot will normally help the E string, but never beyond the foot. Fit is very important. Sometimes adjusting the post makes a big difference but it's not often a game changer.
Too much tension on the top can choke it so heavier strings might make it worse.
Getting the most out of a particular bass is an art as much as a science. I wouldn't recommend making any drastic changes or varying much from the norm. Some basses simply don't have what we want.
In the few years I've been working on basses I've come to see that the post, bridge and bass bar all work together with the post acting like a fulcrum, the
bass bar being a spring (and in a sense like the end of a lever) and the bridge putting it all in motion. Accepting the given that the E string will require the most movement of the top, and of the bass bar, lengthing the 'lever' will facilitate that. Shortening the 'lever' will hinder that.
I've found that moving the post out towards the outside of the G foot will normally help the E string, but never beyond the foot. Fit is very important. Sometimes adjusting the post makes a big difference but it's not often a game changer.
Too much tension on the top can choke it so heavier strings might make it worse.
Getting the most out of a particular bass is an art as much as a science. I wouldn't recommend making any drastic changes or varying much from the norm. Some basses simply don't have what we want.
Very much agreed. Well, for horizontal (or rather: lateral) string vibrations, as from arco, it's the strings putting it in motion, and the bridge is the lever. The conventional proper DB jazz pizz also has a significant lateral component, combined with a vertical component (which is less for arco). There are 2 ways to change the length of the lever: string height & SP position.
Increasing the E height was on the list, but assuming this pertains to the OP's 1870 Thibouville Lamy bass, there is quite a narrow band of heights that are acceptable; the E-height being restricted by bowability of the A & the fact that the neck angle is fixed.
The other way to increase the length of the lever, for particularly the E-string, is to move the SP towards the G-side, as you say. Following the model of the lever, that should increase the E response, and suggesting that was my initial reaction. But personally I have little experience in moving east-west; very quickly it requires making a new post. There once was a bass for which I made several SPs, but I can't quite remember the results... remember I am not a pro.
So I looked it up, and the common advice (for a violin) is summarised by this:
which is exactly what Chet suggested for this issue: towards the E-side.
This may work because the post is not stationary, but also moves & actuates the back. And if you move the post position on the back inwards too, the location that it drives moves away from the ribs & becomes 'softer'. So you get more motion in the back.
Particularly for pizz, the other thing to consider is the vertical string motion (up-down). Pizz has a stronger vertical component than arco. For the vertical component it is clearer: moving towards the G-side makes the E-side of the top softer & more responsive (again by increasing the length of the lever). However, the actuation on the back becomes harder, with the post moving towards the rib. The net result depends on the instrument.
Overall I think the result of moving the post either way depends on the specific instrument, as well on what you want to optimise (pizz or arco). So trial & error, as the luthier has probably done by now. And it may well be that for basses, with a higher breakover angle than violins, moving east is generally more effective than moving west for this issue. Or maybe set the post at a slight angle?
Yes, agreed. This I tested extensively in my test bass, wherein I can change both neck angle & saddle height (up to 9.5 cm above the top), and on that instrument lower load always gave stronger lows & fuller sound (at the same bridge height). But an instrument like the OP's, if it is what I think it is, should be able to carry mature strings, at least for a trial.
No-one above has mentioned the effects of moving the post north-south. My own experience is that this can have quite an effect on the balance between strings. I have found that the G and A strings work as one pair and the D and E are the other. Moving the post north-south in small increments (sometimes only "love taps) finds a series of modal points between which the pairs can alternately change strengths that can profoundly impact on the flexibility and resonance of the E string.
I am not a luthier but have always cut and adjusted my own sound posts. My starting point is the traditional distance (thickness of the post) below and in line with the center of the bridge foot and I go north-south until the open G string relaxes and opens up (resonates). Then I start the finer adjustments, listening for the way the balance moves between the pairs. East-west is also an option during finer adjustments but generally I try north-south first. Moving east with shortening of the post will allow both the A and E strings to move more freely but does not neccessarily benefit their focus
Beware of the mental illness called Soundpostitis. I can only last about an hour at most before I go nuts! The bass also needs to settle by playing on between intense periods of adjustments. Perhaps it is better to make big moves quickly then take time, lots of playing and patience for the finer adjustments.
I am not a luthier but have always cut and adjusted my own sound posts. My starting point is the traditional distance (thickness of the post) below and in line with the center of the bridge foot and I go north-south until the open G string relaxes and opens up (resonates). Then I start the finer adjustments, listening for the way the balance moves between the pairs. East-west is also an option during finer adjustments but generally I try north-south first. Moving east with shortening of the post will allow both the A and E strings to move more freely but does not neccessarily benefit their focus
Beware of the mental illness called Soundpostitis. I can only last about an hour at most before I go nuts! The bass also needs to settle by playing on between intense periods of adjustments. Perhaps it is better to make big moves quickly then take time, lots of playing and patience for the finer adjustments.
Enjoying all the posts here; very informative. This might be veering off-topic but I was wondering what effect the soundpost would have on wolf tones and the elimination (or at least taming) thereof.
I have an open A string that barks pretty strongly and is extremely pronounced when the bass is amplified.
I'm going back to Zyex Mediums to see if a lower tension string helps and also purchased a wolf tone eliminator. Curious if a soundpost adjustment - pressure/length/position - should be a consideration as well.
I have an open A string that barks pretty strongly and is extremely pronounced when the bass is amplified.
I'm going back to Zyex Mediums to see if a lower tension string helps and also purchased a wolf tone eliminator. Curious if a soundpost adjustment - pressure/length/position - should be a consideration as well.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Thanks for the replies. Trip to the luthier tomorrow may reveal any soundpost issues, but the installation of new strings and the wolf tone eliminator has proved beneficial. Also reminded me how much I really dig the Zyex strings. Less tension on the top has opened up the sound of the bass quite nicely. Was on Helicore Hybrids for the past year or so and, though I enjoyed them as well, these Zyex Mediums are feeling (and sounding) really great.
Wolf tone eliminator was brass with a curved slot to slide the string into, as opposed to the rubber-lined version with the screw. Did some reading up on them and got a sense that these were more effective without dampening the string as much.
Final piece of the puzzle tomorrow but, so far so good!
Wolf tone eliminator was brass with a curved slot to slide the string into, as opposed to the rubber-lined version with the screw. Did some reading up on them and got a sense that these were more effective without dampening the string as much.
Final piece of the puzzle tomorrow but, so far so good!
There really is no definitive right or wrong soundpost position. Whenever I have a customer with soundpost issues, I have them come in for an hour or two and the clock is running. I'll move the soundpost around about a dozen times and let them understand the range of possibilities. Then they pick which one is the best for their needs and their ears. Often, the two of us agree on the sweet spot, but there are also many times when they will specifically NOT want what sounds great to my ears and playing style and they will insist on something that sounds horrible to me. The nice thing about offering this type of option is that the ownership of the sound and position is on the customer, not just something that I put there so it is my fault. Ask ten half deaf old geezers to pick the best sound and you'll get 25 different responses! Good luck.
All players should know how to set their own soundpost. It is an essential life skill for a double bass player, like driving a car and not knowing how to change a tire or where the gasoline goes....
j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
All players should know how to set their own soundpost. It is an essential life skill for a double bass player, like driving a car and not knowing how to change a tire or where the gasoline goes....
j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
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Yes! Issue was resolved by one or a combination of things I did.
A trip to the repair shop here in L.A. revealed a soundpost that was in too tight and had shifted out of position. Also a slightly open seam was discovered and subsequently repaired. Soundpost was adjusted as well.
A new set of strings - Zyex Medium - and a wolf tone eliminator was installed (on the offending A string) and all is well. In fact, when I played the bass for the first time upon getting it home from the shop, I was struck by how much louder and open sounding the bass was overall. Perhaps the best it's ever sounded!
Thanks for inquiring and Happy New Year!
Adam
