Sourcing affordable headless tuner/bridge hardware

[JayGunn]

I did a search about Chinese headless bass tuners and encountered Reverend Rally's comment about the 2 Chinese-sourced headless tuners he's tried out--"Terrible, terrible hardware". (Headless designs with regular tuners? post #70). Pete's builds are an automatic sub for me--very original designs--and this makes me think I don't want to try the Overlords of Music headless tuners that are all over eBay (bcause I am assuming that's what he's tried). I'm asking headless experimenters whether...

(a) you have found ways to use this bridge (link below) and tune it up for smooth operation, or

(b) you have tried the more expensive Chinese-sourced headless roller bridge, or

(c) whether you have another tuner to suggest that is less strain on the budget than the Hipshot or ABM tuners that are undoubted worth it if one can afford them.

Plan A would be to buy this and try to file, grease, straighten, etc:
Overloards of Music bridge link: 1 Set Black 4 String Headless Bass Guitar Bridge System Guitar Parts US 9M9F

Plan B would be to try this less common eBay offering, the roller bridge:
Headless roller bridge link: New Black Roller saddle 4 String Bass Guitar Bridge for Headless Bass Guitar T4

Plan C is to find a used Steinberger licensed bridge from a Hohner, and I'm working on that now, but still interested in new cheaper units.

Plan D is to make one myself, which I actually might try. For a wonderful example of doing this there's the classic and brilliant TB thread by Dave Higham, here: 5-String Fanned Hybrid Headless

Any suggestions? Thanks in Advance,
John

 

[Will_White]

I did a search about Chinese headless bass tuners and encountered Reverend Rally's comment about the 2 Chinese-sourced headless tuners he's tried out--"Terrible, terrible hardware". (Headless designs with regular tuners? post #70). Pete's builds are an automatic sub for me--very original designs--and this makes me think I don't want to try the Overlords of Music headless tuners that are all over eBay (bcause I am assuming that's what he's tried). I'm asking headless experimenters whether...

(a) you have found ways to use this bridge (link below) and tune it up for smooth operation, or

(b) you have tried the more expensive Chinese-sourced headless roller bridge, or

(c) whether you have another tuner to suggest that is less strain on the budget than the Hipshot or ABM tuners that are undoubted worth it if one can afford them.

Plan A would be to buy this and try to file, grease, straighten, etc:
Overloards of Music bridge link: 1 Set Black 4 String Headless Bass Guitar Bridge System Guitar Parts US 9M9F

Plan B would be to try this less common eBay offering, the roller bridge:
Headless roller bridge link: New Black Roller saddle 4 String Bass Guitar Bridge for Headless Bass Guitar T4

Plan C is to find a used Steinberger licensed bridge from a Hohner, and I'm working on that now, but still interested in new cheaper units.

Plan D is to make one myself, which I actually might try. For a wonderful example of doing this there's the classic and brilliant TB thread by Dave Higham, here: 5-String Fanned Hybrid Headless

Any suggestions? Thanks in Advance,
John

If you go with plan D, there's @michaelwayneharwood's design, I think he also might be selling them still.

 

[GMC]

I did a search about Chinese headless bass tuners and encountered Reverend Rally's comment about the 2 Chinese-sourced headless tuners he's tried out--"Terrible, terrible hardware". (Headless designs with regular tuners? post #70). Pete's builds are an automatic sub for me--very original designs--and this makes me think I don't want to try the Overlords of Music headless tuners that are all over eBay (bcause I am assuming that's what he's tried). I'm asking headless experimenters whether...

(a) you have found ways to use this bridge (link below) and tune it up for smooth operation, or

(b) you have tried the more expensive Chinese-sourced headless roller bridge, or

(c) whether you have another tuner to suggest that is less strain on the budget than the Hipshot or ABM tuners that are undoubted worth it if one can afford them.

Plan A would be to buy this and try to file, grease, straighten, etc:
Overloards of Music bridge link: 1 Set Black 4 String Headless Bass Guitar Bridge System Guitar Parts US 9M9F

Plan B would be to try this less common eBay offering, the roller bridge:
Headless roller bridge link: New Black Roller saddle 4 String Bass Guitar Bridge for Headless Bass Guitar T4

Plan C is to find a used Steinberger licensed bridge from a Hohner, and I'm working on that now, but still interested in new cheaper units.

Plan D is to make one myself, which I actually might try. For a wonderful example of doing this there's the classic and brilliant TB thread by Dave Higham, here: 5-String Fanned Hybrid Headless

Any suggestions? Thanks in Advance,
John

I've used Status Graphite's hardware a number of times...but Rob no longer sells them to anyone anymore after some bad experiences. It's a pity because his modular system and easily the best tuner / bridge system I've used so far. His head pieces are by far the easiest to install and give the best results. Hipshot's head piece comes close but it's not quite as good. The hipshot system works very well, just make sure you order the right string spacing for your bass. I would avoid any parts from China...these parts need to be precision made and really well designed. I think the ABM tuners are very similar to Robs, although I haven't tried one myself. With headless parts...you REALLY get what you pay for.

 

[rojo412]

I thought the Status stuff was made by ABM?
If so, Allparts sells some of it.
ABM Single String Bass Bridge | Allparts.com

I wouldn't call them "affordable", in the sense of "inexpensive", but you pay for awesomeness.

 

[CosmoReverb]

Invalid Link Removed sells a fair amount of Steinie replacement bits and bobs. Never bought from them, their stock seems a bit sporadic (as is probably expected,) and their prices don't seem anything to crow about, but they might be worth checking out if you are leaning towards that style of headless hardware.

 

[Rickett Customs]

You can't go wrong with ABM or Hipshot.
Potmetal has no place for headless hardware, that's what you'll most likely get with the el cheapo stuff. Just my .02 though.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I have no experience with the Overlords hardware, but it looks like a pretty faithful knockoff of the 80's era bridge and nut on my Steinberger XP2. Its really a pretty simple design, not sure why the Chinese couldn't pull it off. The claws attached to each threaded rod to grab the ball ends have to be hardened steel though, that's what will fail if they cheap out on materials.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

If you go with plan D, there's @michaelwayneharwood's design, I think he also might be selling them still.

I am. PM me if interested.

 

[JayGunn]

Great suggestions. Many thanks. I'll revive this with a post later on what I settle on.

 

[Deep Cat]

I bought the Overlords Of Music headless system. I haven't used it in a build yet.

Pros: Price is nice. It is one of the few headless systems out there that doesn't require you to have double ball end strings, so if you are going to do something interesting like unusual scale lengths, altered tunings and whatnot, sourcing strings isn't a problem. The materials seem pretty solid. Did I mention price?

Cons: It says "Overlord Of Music" On it. It's constructed pretty hastily/shabbily (my unit has stripped screws and some sloppy epoxy work). It's kind of heavy for what it is. I think. I haven't compared it to other headless systems in person. The aesthetics aren't that great. I've read bad things about the material quality leading to stripped tuning screws sooner or later, but usually always.

Overview: You get what you pay for. My intention is to use this system to build a cheap half scale travel bass. I'll likely do so, but really the value of this unit for me is seeing how simple these units actually are and developing a plan to reverse engineer it so I can fabricate my own.

If you are looking for results and not process, I'd steer clear of the Overlord units. The ones built by @michaelwayneharwood take all of the pros I've mentioned with none of the cons. His units are well considered, elegant, and don't require double ball end strings.

 

[JayGunn]

In some of the eBay Overlords offerings there's a picture of the Overlords unit upside down. It looks to me like the Overlords cap could be unscrewed from below and I wouldn't even have considered it if I hadn't gotten the hope going that that logo could be replaced. Otherwise I'd be inclined to try to epoxy a matching veneer of the body wood onto it.

But for me the cons seems too compelling for me to risk the $40. There's also a product that comes up in eBay if you search for "headless bass bridge" that consists of a set of the 4 sliders/claws that pull on the ball end. I might have given that a try for making my own design, except that on the headlessUSA site (link in post #5) I see that they are making these 'claws' in high carbon steel because they say they are the parts that break most often. And that eBay version says it's made of steel and copper. The studs are obviously steel, so the claw itself must be cast of copper, or brass, or some pot metal containing copper, and it seems it would have to be too fragile.

I have some brass 12mm x 12mm bars, and I'm inclined for now to use them and some ebony to make my own, taking inspiration from Michael Harwood and Dave Higham. Meanwhile if I can score a used Hohner/Steinberger, I'll try that. No telling if my design will work (but I'm oddly confident).

You guys are seriously helpful!

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

In some of the eBay Overlords offerings there's a picture of the Overlords unit upside down. It looks to me like the Overlords cap could be unscrewed from below and I wouldn't even have considered it if I hadn't gotten the hope going that that logo could be replaced. Otherwise I'd be inclined to try to epoxy a matching veneer of the body wood onto it.

But for me the cons seems too compelling for me to risk the $40. There's also a product that comes up in eBay if you search for "headless bass bridge" that consists of a set of the 4 sliders/claws that pull on the ball end. I might have given that a try for making my own design, except that on the headlessUSA site (link in post #5) I see that they are making these 'claws' in high carbon steel because they say they are the parts that break most often. And that eBay version says it's made of steel and copper. The studs are obviously steel, so the claw itself must be cast of copper, or brass, or some pot metal containing copper, and it seems it would have to be too fragile.

I have some brass 12mm x 12mm bars, and I'm inclined for now to use them and some ebony to make my own, taking inspiration from Michael Harwood and Dave Higham. Meanwhile if I can score a used Hohner/Steinberger, I'll try that. No telling if my design will work (but I'm oddly confident).

You guys are seriously helpful!

Please keep us updated - I am *very* interested in seeing how they turn out, and if I can help in any way let me know.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

FWIW, my 86' XP-2 bridge (relocated into ho-made body) is all original, including the string claws, so Ned built them right back in the day. 30 years and not a lick of trouble.

 

[Will_White]

Another possible option (something I've only thought about but haven't tried I might explore it in a future build) is to turn standard tuners on their side mount them at the heel and replace the tuning key with some hex bar so you can use a wrench with them. I'd actually be surprised if something like that doesn't exist already.

 

[JayGunn]

I suppose I watered down my determination to build the tuner/bridge hardware from scratch by creating a fall-back plan. I just 'won' a 4-string Steinberger Licensed bridge on eBay, as hinted in post #11 above. Arrived today in good condition. 'Won' in quotes because I turned out to be the only bidder.

BUT I'm still inclined to try to create my own hardware from scratch. One issue I see is that if you create the tuner and bridge as separate pieces (which is how my own design is evolving) there's the possibility of building just the tuner section and buying the bridge portion (e.g. Hipshot Type D, tune-o-matic designs). But I don't get a good feeling about the tune-o-matic approach of having all the string pressure coupled to the body through two adjustable bolts. If you care about sustain (and maybe stability and staying in tune) I think there must be better ways to do that. I like the idea that the bridge sits solidly on the body wood and maybe transmits some (magic? imaginary?) vibrations to the body.

In the Steinberger design tuner section and bridge are all in a single casting and not sitting up on some tune-o-matic screws. And it has been proven by decades of experience. Still I have the feeling that it can be improved on. Maybe just my arrogance; we'll see.

 

[Will_White]

I suppose I watered down my determination to build the tuner/bridge hardware from scratch by creating a fall-back plan. I just 'won' a 4-string Steinberger Licensed bridge on eBay, as hinted in post #11 above. Arrived today in good condition. 'Won' in quotes because I turned out to be the only bidder.

BUT I'm still inclined to try to create my own hardware from scratch. One issue I see is that if you create the tuner and bridge as separate pieces (which is how my own design is evolving) there's the possibility of building just the tuner section and buying the bridge portion (e.g. Hipshot Type D, tune-o-matic designs). But I don't get a good feeling about the tune-o-matic approach of having all the string pressure coupled to the body through two adjustable bolts. If you care about sustain (and maybe stability and staying in tune) I think there must be better ways to do that. I like the idea that the bridge sits solidly on the body wood and maybe transmits some (magic? imaginary?) vibrations to the body.

In the Steinberger design tuner section and bridge are all in a single casting and not sitting up on some tune-o-matic screws. And it has been proven by decades of experience. Still I have the feeling that it can be improved on. Maybe just my arrogance; we'll see.

Something to remember is that even in the high mass boutique bass bridges, all the vibrations are transfered via two tiny screws into the bass plate.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I've seen a lot of variations on the Steinberger bridge concept. Some work equally well, but not better IMO. It's hard to improve on something that simple, straight line pull, micrometer level adjustment, no string twist. The original design bridges are on the heavy side, but they stay put once you lock down the saddles. The new NS design bridges are interesting, kind of a hybrid of his straight post tuner keys for headstock basses where the string is tensioned by being pulled down into the tuner. I've yet to get my hands on one to see how it works. Anybody have photos of the "guts" of that new design?

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

I thought the Status stuff was made by ABM?
If so, Allparts sells some of it.
ABM Single String Bass Bridge | Allparts.com

I wouldn't call them "affordable", in the sense of "inexpensive", but you pay for awesomeness.

I have used this hardware and can attest to it's quality. I like to use the HipShot headpieces with these bridges - the combination looks sleek, does not require double ball strings, and works very well. AllParts also offers "dealer" discounts of up to 50%, so if you can get hooked up with an AllParts dealer willing to help you out you could get these for quite a bit less.

 

[michaelwayneharwood]

BUT I'm still inclined to try to create my own hardware from scratch. One issue I see is that if you create the tuner and bridge as separate pieces (which is how my own design is evolving) there's the possibility of building just the tuner section and buying the bridge portion (e.g. Hipshot Type D, tune-o-matic designs). But I don't get a good feeling about the tune-o-matic approach of having all the string pressure coupled to the body through two adjustable bolts. If you care about sustain (and maybe stability and staying in tune) I think there must be better ways to do that. I like the idea that the bridge sits solidly on the body wood and maybe transmits some (magic? imaginary?) vibrations to the body.

This is the method I landed on for my headless designs. The beauty of designing your own string tension devices that are separate from the bridge is that your options open up quite a bit in regards to both aesthetics and function. This kind of design also allows you to explore hybrid options such as the below photo. I took individual bridge saddle assemblies from an inexpensive AllParts bridge and made a new wooden housing to accommodate the design my customer was going for. The nice thing about this hobby is that you are generally limited only by your imagination....oh...and physics.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Well, if you had a Quantum bridge, it could be in two places at once, but would disappear as soon as you looked at it. This concludes the lame "physics humor" portion of our program.