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SPECTOR® Club - Part 50

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#503
worshiprocker said:
I'm blown away that ANY of you guys would travel out to AZ for our album release... just blown away... Rock and Roll!!! That is just too cool :bassist::bassist:
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Hey, we talk a lot, I like you, I like the band music, I like to travel, I could use a vacation.......what's not to understand.......and I can drag Lee with me? See.......come on! I' m gonna go sell plasma now......lol
 
#504
JPSBassist said:
I'd agree. And there are reasons why these laws eventually came into existence. Not saying that is because of Kramer... but across multiple industries the lines were blurred and of course as import/export laws became more complex with the advent of NAFTA and other trade agreements.



No. You are correct. The issue was that many of the former Kramer owners I spoke to didn't know the difference. They didn't know that because the neck plate had the Kramer/Neptune NJ plate that it WASN'T made in the USA. And many dealers took the stickers off. Now was that Kramer's fault? The dealers fault? The customer's fault? Probably a little of everyone's and no ones.

In the research I've done and the people I've spoken to including former Kramer employees, this was just one of the things that seemed to happen to create marketplace confusion regarding their products, which were good products, BTW, and this was one of the many complex issues that contributed to their downfall.



Agreed. Again, the issue is complex and probably changed from dealer to dealer. Some would leave the "made in Korea" stickers on, others would not and then who was able to tell one from the other?



I apologize if it was a blanket statement and as pointed and direct as it needed to be. Was Kramer being shady?

One could argue that towards the end little effort was made to differentiate product... you see that in the Spectors that were made after Stuart left.

There are NS-2A models running around out there with Crown Inlays and USA Circuits. Were they sold as USA models? I haven't been able to track anyone down who was an original owner of one of these to get their story.

Was this a symptom of the financial pressures that were on the company as a result of a completely different set of circumstances?

So I should have clarified. In the last year that Kramer operated there were a lot of blurred lines. Again, from former Kramer employees.

Am I trying to bash Kramer? No. They made great guitars. Look at how many have held their value through the years and are (especially when you look at the value when adjusted for inflation) worth twice and three times what they originally were. Crap guitars don't do that.

I think the whole story as I've been given it, and I'm sure some of those resources are biased, is pretty sad. A rags to riches to rags story. And luckily for a period of time some of the best and most innovative guitar designs in the history of the instrument came from Neptune, NJ.

I am anything but a Kramer fan. So let me apologize if I gave the wrong impression.

But if you look at the question that my post (that you quoted) was in response to, you'll see the EXACT sort of market confusion that "Kramer, Neptune, NJ" neck plate creates, even to this day. People see it and even though it doesn't say, "Made in the USA." They see Neptune, NJ and think, "This must have been made in Neptune, NJ"

That was the reason I made the comment I did.



Yeah. Don't get me started on Fender. :D
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I have lived here in the Neptune area my entire life, and go back to the last days of Danelectro and Ampeg as well.

In the last days of Kramer, there was a "garage sale", as with Vaccaro and Danelectro. Basically, if the neck and body mated, and a usable product could be made, it was. I bought a couple of instruments at the end myself, and some I wish I still had. There was this really cool Focus 88 that had the Focus 77 body and electronics. Darn, I never should have let that go.

I'm just trying to be an honest broker. I know there was a lot of headache and heartache for Stu and some of the guys at Kramer at the end surrounding the Spector products. One thing that I just don't want is the idea that Kramer and the folks were dishonest or doing anything that tarnishes their reputation. The truth is that what killed Kramer in the end was extremely poor money management.

For a fun fact, about a year or two after a certain Henry J. purchased a company called Gibson, it was offered to the Kramer owners for the price of the debt, which at that time was very small. Can you imagine what life would be like today if Kramer had bought Gibson, and not vice versa?

tom
 
#505
lippylou said:
You definitely have a point there, I definitely don't want that bass in a gig bag. That's why I got a case for it. Just wondering if they do check it in, Could I lock it, most checked baggage goes unlocked in case TSA wants to take a gander.
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Fender TSA hardcase, my rebop 5 fit it nicely. Its got a TSA lock on it, which means they have a key that opens it.
 
#506
TRichardsbass said:
I have lived here in the Neptune area my entire life, and go back to the last days of Danelectro and Ampeg as well.

In the last days of Kramer, there was a "garage sale", as with Vaccaro and Danelectro. Basically, if the neck and body mated, and a usable product could be made, it was. I bought a couple of instruments at the end myself, and some I wish I still had. There was this really cool Focus 88 that had the Focus 77 body and electronics. Darn, I never should have let that go.

I'm just trying to be an honest broker. I know there was a lot of headache and heartache for Stu and some of the guys at Kramer at the end surrounding the Spector products. One thing that I just don't want is the idea that Kramer and the folks were dishonest or doing anything that tarnishes their reputation. The truth is that what killed Kramer in the end was extremely poor money management.

For a fun fact, about a year or two after a certain Henry J. purchased a company called Gibson, it was offered to the Kramer owners for the price of the debt, which at that time was very small. Can you imagine what life would be like today if Kramer had bought Gibson, and not vice versa?

tom
Click to expand...

No worries and thank you for your clarification. It's awesome to know someone else who was there.

I think the Kramer-Era of Spector is a vitally important part of Spector's history. Kramer had the organization and resources to really put Spector out there. Something that Stuart on his own with Alan, couldn't have done.

So really, if not for Kramer many of the people here might have never seen or heard of Spector.

And in that period of time, Garry Tallent, Doug Wimbish and Ian Hill became Spector artists. And these men, besides being music legends, are signature artists for Spector today (I know that you know this... And I feel that Garry is one of the most awesome and yet under-rated bassists in modern history... he's a brilliant bassist).

So thanks for making me clarify my comments. I sometimes get in a hurry and don't fully explain what I mean. And I do apologize for that.
 
#507
TRichardsbass said:
I have lived here in the Neptune area my entire life, and go back to the last days of Danelectro and Ampeg as well.
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Oh... and just so you know... I have a 1988 Kramer/Spector NS-2A that sits in the rack right next to my Woodstock USA Spectors. It's one bass I'll never get rid of. My first true Spector Love. :D

I'm a big fan of the Korean Spectors from that period. Pound for pound one of the best deals you can get if you're looking for an affordable, entry level Spector experience.
 
#508
Just to follow up on the Kramer thing, I agree with Patrick that the lines were awful "blurry" with a lot of those Kramer things. I switched from guitar to bass in early 1988. After playing an overseas Charvel for a few months and selling off all of my guitar gear, I wanted to upgrade to a "pro level" bass as my band was gigging about 3 days a week with most weekends out of town. I purchased a Kramer Forum III (it was about $1100 new if I recall, not cheap at all). Anyway, I always thought it was a USA made bass. It ended up being stolen in the early 90's and that was that.

A few years ago, I got a little nostalgic and started looking them up. I was quite surprised to learn it was not an USA made bass.

Here is from the Vintage Kramer website:

"Forums were constructed and assembled overseas in Japan, however, they were marketed in the US in symphony with the American Series Guitars (although not labeled as such)."

Link to article

I am nearly 100% positive that it didn't say Made in Japan on the headstock or anything as I would have noticed it. There was no neck plate as it was a neck-through model. Maybe it said it in the control cavity and I never noticed (I can't imagine considering the use that bass got and changing batteries for the EMG's). Maybe it had a sticker the dealer took off. I don't know. I honestly don't remember what the dealer told me as it was so long ago. I looked at the catalog on the Vintage Kramer website and it does not list where they are made in it either. So, I guess my point is that things were certainly confusing with the way Kramer handled some of those things on probably quite a few models during those years.
 
#510
NOLA Bass said:
Just to follow up on the Kramer thing, I agree with Patrick that the lines were awful "blurry" with a lot of those Kramer things. I switched from guitar to bass in early 1988. After playing an overseas Charvel for a few months and selling off all of my guitar gear, I wanted to upgrade to a "pro level" bass as my band was gigging about 3 days a week with most weekends out of town. I purchased a Kramer Forum III (it was about $1100 new if I recall, not cheap at all). Anyway, I always thought it was a USA made bass. It ended up being stolen in the early 90's and that was that.

A few years ago, I got a little nostalgic and started looking them up. I was quite surprised to learn it was not an USA made bass.

Here is from the Vintage Kramer website:

"Forums were constructed and assembled overseas in Japan, however, they were marketed in the US in symphony with the American Series Guitars (although not labeled as such)."

Link to article

I am nearly 100% positive that it didn't say Made in Japan on the headstock or anything as I would have noticed it. There was no neck plate as it was a neck-through model. Maybe it said it in the control cavity and I never noticed (I can't imagine considering the use that bass got and changing batteries for the EMG's). Maybe it had a sticker the dealer took off. I don't know. I honestly don't remember what the dealer told me as it was so long ago. I looked at the catalog on the Vintage Kramer website and it does not list where they are made in it either. So, I guess my point is that things were certainly confusing with the way Kramer handled some of those things on probably quite a few models during those years.
Click to expand...


Welcome to the '80s. I am either still confused or maybe I am still recovering... :D

However, I know it was never the companies intent, as the literature for those years tells you where they were made.

And you will surely enjoy this. AXL does the same thing today, however it is sort of clearer.

Link Removed

I love the "world class parts assembled in the USA."

So, nothing new, and ain't going away.

However, I guess you could say Kramer did Pioneer it (pun intended if you know the history.)

tom
 
#511
Oh, and the stickers were those tiny ones. They were usually gold foil with black print, and easily came off. I wouldn't be surprised if in the day dealers removed them. The MIJs I believe the stickers were even smaller. I'll check with Andy P and ask for confirmation.

Either way, like I said, welcome to the '80s.

tom

NOLA Bass said:
Just to follow up on the Kramer thing, I agree with Patrick that the lines were awful "blurry" with a lot of those Kramer things. I switched from guitar to bass in early 1988. After playing an overseas Charvel for a few months and selling off all of my guitar gear, I wanted to upgrade to a "pro level" bass as my band was gigging about 3 days a week with most weekends out of town. I purchased a Kramer Forum III (it was about $1100 new if I recall, not cheap at all). Anyway, I always thought it was a USA made bass. It ended up being stolen in the early 90's and that was that.

A few years ago, I got a little nostalgic and started looking them up. I was quite surprised to learn it was not an USA made bass.

Here is from the Vintage Kramer website:

"Forums were constructed and assembled overseas in Japan, however, they were marketed in the US in symphony with the American Series Guitars (although not labeled as such)."

Link to article

I am nearly 100% positive that it didn't say Made in Japan on the headstock or anything as I would have noticed it. There was no neck plate as it was a neck-through model. Maybe it said it in the control cavity and I never noticed (I can't imagine considering the use that bass got and changing batteries for the EMG's). Maybe it had a sticker the dealer took off. I don't know. I honestly don't remember what the dealer told me as it was so long ago. I looked at the catalog on the Vintage Kramer website and it does not list where they are made in it either. So, I guess my point is that things were certainly confusing with the way Kramer handled some of those things on probably quite a few models during those years.
Click to expand...
 
#512
"Pioneer", the precursor to the Forum!!! ; )

For everyone's amusement and to lighten the mood around here, enjoy a pic of me with the Kramer Forum. This is late 88 or early 89.

trikpalace.jpg
 
#513
Tom,

That AXL guitar link is to funny. The model even has USA in the name. That line "World class parts assembled in the USA" is great. As I marketer, I laughed out loud!!!!

It just drives home that it is nice that builders like Stuart Spector are very clear about their different lines!

Rob
 
#514
JPSBassist said:
No worries and thank you for your clarification. It's awesome to know someone else who was there.

I think the Kramer-Era of Spector is a vitally important part of Spector's history. Kramer had the organization and resources to really put Spector out there. Something that Stuart on his own with Alan, couldn't have done.

So really, if not for Kramer many of the people here might have never seen or heard of Spector.

And in that period of time, Garry Tallent, Doug Wimbish and Ian Hill became Spector artists. And these men, besides being music legends, are signature artists for Spector today (I know that you know this... And I feel that Garry is one of the most awesome and yet under-rated bassists in modern history... he's a brilliant bassist).

So thanks for making me clarify my comments. I sometimes get in a hurry and don't fully explain what I mean. And I do apologize for that.
Click to expand...


The Kramer factory used to be about a one minute drive from the Tallent family home at that time. Maybe way too easy for Garry to stop in... ;)
 
#519
TRichardsbass said:
Oh, and the stickers were those tiny ones. They were usually gold foil with black print, and easily came off. I wouldn't be surprised if in the day dealers removed them. The MIJs I believe the stickers were even smaller. I'll check with Andy P and ask for confirmation.

Either way, like I said, welcome to the '80s.

tom
Click to expand...

jackson, fender, and BC rich did that with the USA neckplates too. some still do i believe. hard pressed to find and tell a USA jackson from an import sometimes.
 
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