Does anyone know any exercises/have advice on developing spiccato and making it even?
I just can't seem to get the stroke down.
I just can't seem to get the stroke down.
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Double Bass Spiccato
- Thread starter A Spotless Mind
- Start date
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
- Disclosures
- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
Learning new strokes can be a little like a chinese finger trap. The harder you "try" or struggle, the more impossible it becomes. Let go, take a step back, and just observe what the stick does when you let it bounce on the string. See what it does at different points of the hair. See what happens when you tilt the hair, see what happens when you use flat hair. Observe the camber flex. Watch how the hair bends in relation to the stick. See what looser hair does, see what tighter hair does. Experiment with your bow hold -- try it once with a very tight hold, and then again with a very soft "cradle." Move your hand position. What happens when you pronate? What happens when you don't pronate? Switch from French to German hold (or vice versa) to see how the stick works that way. Try it on different strings in different registers. Try letting the bow bounce down-down-up-up.
Fool around and observe what happens. You may find what you're looking for without meaning to.
Fool around and observe what happens. You may find what you're looking for without meaning to.
What sort of bow? It does matter. I'm a Frenchie and I could not comment on German bow techniques beyond the simplest commonalities.
DP
DP
David, I hope you can give your spiccato tips for the french bow. I am currentlly practising a lot of spiccato and your advise will be welcome to me. I am curious how you teach this.
Try this: When I learned this stroke my teacher approached it from a vertical and then added the horizontal aspect. By the way, my teacher plays french and I play german, he teaches it the same way to both and I too have done the same.
Identify on your stick where a good natural bounce occurs then try this.
First the vertical: Put the bow on the string where you normally would. From there, lift your bow off the string about a foot or so. Stay loose! Drop your arm back down, the bow should make contact and the natural bounce will make the bow come off the string. Keep doing this, each time lifting less and less. You should be able to control the bounce until its less than an inch off of the string.
Now add the horizontal aspect. When the vertical bounce is controlled, you can then add the back and forth motion.
Identify on your stick where a good natural bounce occurs then try this.
First the vertical: Put the bow on the string where you normally would. From there, lift your bow off the string about a foot or so. Stay loose! Drop your arm back down, the bow should make contact and the natural bounce will make the bow come off the string. Keep doing this, each time lifting less and less. You should be able to control the bounce until its less than an inch off of the string.
Now add the horizontal aspect. When the vertical bounce is controlled, you can then add the back and forth motion.
Once you get the spiccato down, this is a really good way to make it super accurate. Start out with 2 eighths, then triplets then sixteenths.
LesFret, this is my spiel about Off-String Bowing!
The string is a spring, the bow stick is a spring, the hair is a spring. Your bow hold, wrist and arm must respect and work with these springs in all forms of bowing. If you understand these relationships then bowing becomes easy and fun.
The bow stick rotates around the R thumb (pivot point). The index finger has two tasks. It hooks over the stick to control the height of the bow point and guide the bow movement at 90 degrees to each string. Working with the thumb it hooks the bow down onto the strings in (broadly speaking) three forms of bow stroke. On the String, Off the String and Semi-Off the String.
Off-string strokes are where the bow hair is bounced into/dropped onto the string as the hand moves back and forth sideways. The flexibility of the stick, hair and string causes the bow to rebound and be trapped by the hand for the identical return stroke. The sound is often lighter than on-string bowing and has lots of character
The stick and hair are most flexible at the middle of the bow. Begin the off-string adventure here by bouncing the bow vertically with no sideways movement. Use the index finger to rotate the stick around the thumb and strike the string. The index finger will trap the rebound each time like dribbling a basketball. The point of the bow will rise and fall a lot and there will be virtually no sound. The moment the bow starts to move sideways (like a "vee" with a rounded bottom) as it drops and rebounds you will begin to make short spikey sounds. The sideways movement can come from experimenting with movements of the fingers, wrist, elbow or a combination of the three. I call this a STRUCK STROKE. It is also possible to produce a RICOCHET bowing (bouncing more than once in each direction) using this index finger/ thumb relationship.
Once you get comfortable with this form of bounce, say using 8th notes at quarter = 80 - 90, move it around the length of the bow hair. In the upper half of the bow it still rebounds well but sounds become softer and lighter. As you come back towards the balance point of the bow you will notice that the original "Vee" shape movement loses its springs. You begin to carry the bow more through its bounce in a shallow scooping motion. Until you reach the balance point the tip of the bow will probably rise and fall more that your hand. At and inside the balance point the bow stick will tend to travel parallel with itself as you carry the bounce. Inside the balance point you can use the bow weight help you GOUGE notes out of the lower strings, very useful for FF quarter notes in say Beethoven.
You can clearly hear the difference between the length of the struck and carried bounce if first you pat the back of one hand vertically with the other then brush the other hand sideways about 4" in a longer flatter shallow scooping motion. I call this my HAYDN / MOZART bounce, eg repeated 8th notes in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that produces warmer longer bounced sounds with more life and character than playing on the string.
As well as shortness and character of the off-string notes there are speed and dynamics to consider. On-string playing can clearly produce musical sounds of any length and dynamic if you are careful with bow length, bow weight and contact point. Off-string bowings, be they struck or scooped, tend to work well in different narrower speed ranges. Faster or slower will tend to force you back down onto the strings again, especially for louder dynamics.
My understanding is that the Italians invented the more middle-of-the-bow SPICCATO to produce clear frothy sounds, full of life Eg. Vivaldi "Four Seasons" rapid 16th notes. This can easily become a semi-off-the-string bow stroke called SAUTILLE to produce very fast chuckling sounds. Because the bass bow is heavier and slower what we tend to call Spiccato is often more like the warmer bounce closer in to the bow hold.
There is lots of experimenting to do. Each bow and player are different and some bows JUST WILL NOT produce a decent spiccato. Time to trade in for a better one? This is also why I would always upgrade my bow before I upgraded my bass (in a perfect world) and why people pay thousands.
Regards to all,
DP
The string is a spring, the bow stick is a spring, the hair is a spring. Your bow hold, wrist and arm must respect and work with these springs in all forms of bowing. If you understand these relationships then bowing becomes easy and fun.
The bow stick rotates around the R thumb (pivot point). The index finger has two tasks. It hooks over the stick to control the height of the bow point and guide the bow movement at 90 degrees to each string. Working with the thumb it hooks the bow down onto the strings in (broadly speaking) three forms of bow stroke. On the String, Off the String and Semi-Off the String.
Off-string strokes are where the bow hair is bounced into/dropped onto the string as the hand moves back and forth sideways. The flexibility of the stick, hair and string causes the bow to rebound and be trapped by the hand for the identical return stroke. The sound is often lighter than on-string bowing and has lots of character
The stick and hair are most flexible at the middle of the bow. Begin the off-string adventure here by bouncing the bow vertically with no sideways movement. Use the index finger to rotate the stick around the thumb and strike the string. The index finger will trap the rebound each time like dribbling a basketball. The point of the bow will rise and fall a lot and there will be virtually no sound. The moment the bow starts to move sideways (like a "vee" with a rounded bottom) as it drops and rebounds you will begin to make short spikey sounds. The sideways movement can come from experimenting with movements of the fingers, wrist, elbow or a combination of the three. I call this a STRUCK STROKE. It is also possible to produce a RICOCHET bowing (bouncing more than once in each direction) using this index finger/ thumb relationship.
Once you get comfortable with this form of bounce, say using 8th notes at quarter = 80 - 90, move it around the length of the bow hair. In the upper half of the bow it still rebounds well but sounds become softer and lighter. As you come back towards the balance point of the bow you will notice that the original "Vee" shape movement loses its springs. You begin to carry the bow more through its bounce in a shallow scooping motion. Until you reach the balance point the tip of the bow will probably rise and fall more that your hand. At and inside the balance point the bow stick will tend to travel parallel with itself as you carry the bounce. Inside the balance point you can use the bow weight help you GOUGE notes out of the lower strings, very useful for FF quarter notes in say Beethoven.
You can clearly hear the difference between the length of the struck and carried bounce if first you pat the back of one hand vertically with the other then brush the other hand sideways about 4" in a longer flatter shallow scooping motion. I call this my HAYDN / MOZART bounce, eg repeated 8th notes in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that produces warmer longer bounced sounds with more life and character than playing on the string.
As well as shortness and character of the off-string notes there are speed and dynamics to consider. On-string playing can clearly produce musical sounds of any length and dynamic if you are careful with bow length, bow weight and contact point. Off-string bowings, be they struck or scooped, tend to work well in different narrower speed ranges. Faster or slower will tend to force you back down onto the strings again, especially for louder dynamics.
My understanding is that the Italians invented the more middle-of-the-bow SPICCATO to produce clear frothy sounds, full of life Eg. Vivaldi "Four Seasons" rapid 16th notes. This can easily become a semi-off-the-string bow stroke called SAUTILLE to produce very fast chuckling sounds. Because the bass bow is heavier and slower what we tend to call Spiccato is often more like the warmer bounce closer in to the bow hold.
There is lots of experimenting to do. Each bow and player are different and some bows JUST WILL NOT produce a decent spiccato. Time to trade in for a better one? This is also why I would always upgrade my bow before I upgraded my bass (in a perfect world) and why people pay thousands.
Regards to all,
DP
The only real differences with German bow are a) the pivot is more or less in the same place, but exactly where depends on your bow hold; I hold my bow much like a pencil, so the pivot pretty much is my 2nd finger and b) everything happens quite a bit closer to the frog. But otherwise, it's the same thing. Flexibility in the bow hold is the key, if you clamp the frog into your palm it just doesn't work.
For me, hearing the stroke goes a long way to achieving it...clearly understanding what I'm supposed to be hearing when I do it myself.
Getting to hear Hal Robinson do it in that video on Youtube did wonders for my own spiccato, which is still a work in progress for me...maybe forever. Hopefully it stays on Youtube for a long time and we all get to hear that standard.
Also, just playing repertoire that calls for spiccato helped me a lot to get better with it...and just like some have said already, letting the bow bounce without trying so hard to make it happen is a real thing and it happens almost effortlessly in those passages when I'm finally in that comfort zone where I don't have to think at all about what I'm physically doing when I'm playing.
Getting to hear Hal Robinson do it in that video on Youtube did wonders for my own spiccato, which is still a work in progress for me...maybe forever. Hopefully it stays on Youtube for a long time and we all get to hear that standard.
Also, just playing repertoire that calls for spiccato helped me a lot to get better with it...and just like some have said already, letting the bow bounce without trying so hard to make it happen is a real thing and it happens almost effortlessly in those passages when I'm finally in that comfort zone where I don't have to think at all about what I'm physically doing when I'm playing.
Andrew, wouldn't the German bow fulcrum (pivot point) be behind the frog with your fingers and/or thumb tip being the lever(s)? The reason the G bow is instantly more powerful than the F bow is because of the greater distance between fulcrum and lever (ie the leverage)?
Btw, is your damaged house one of the ones declared not to be rebuilt following the earthquake in Christchurch? I hope not.
DP
Btw, is your damaged house one of the ones declared not to be rebuilt following the earthquake in Christchurch? I hope not.
DP
I didn't describe that so well... the pivot is really the rotation axis of your forearm, which for most of a normal spiccato stroke projects through the bow a bit behind where my second finger touches it.
The house isn't listed yet, but the area is probably OK for building, presuming they can sort the access roads out. That's not necessarily good news, because we remain at the mercy of the market and insurers instead of simply being paid out the 2007 rating valuation.
The house isn't listed yet, but the area is probably OK for building, presuming they can sort the access roads out. That's not necessarily good news, because we remain at the mercy of the market and insurers instead of simply being paid out the 2007 rating valuation.
David thanks for your nice description!
One more question: what is the 'best' for spiccato: flat hair on the strings or the bow a bit tilted towards you?
One more question: what is the 'best' for spiccato: flat hair on the strings or the bow a bit tilted towards you?
LesFret, I like the idea of starting flat on the E string and, without changing my bow hold, naturally ending up a little more on the upper side of the hair as I simply roll the bow over to the top strings. I still like to have a width of hair contact on these strings but the upper side bends more around the string than the lower side.
Reasons, (1) The E string is heaviest and usually played in the lower half of the bow for all but long notes. Here the more direct weight of the arm on the string is spread evenly across the width of hair, (2) As the strings progressively become thinner and lighter they need less hair contact to move them but some hair working harder keeps the sound focused and guarantees more control of timing and coordinating between hands.
Someone once asked, "would doubling, tripling or quadrupling the width of hair (by taping bows together) progressively increase the volume?" I haven't tried it but my answer would be "No" because you are spreading the same weight across a wider surface area. On the other hand many cheaper trade bows coming from Germany in the 50' and 60s, usually brazilwood or pernambuco, had too narrow a ribbon of hair to function well. What a waste of good materials!! Well made French bows (ie from France) seem always to have had wider hair.
Relating this to spiccato you can see that success comes after a lot of experimenting on your bass and strings with your bow, rosin and technique to find the physical comfort and sound you want. Start experimenting on one note per string (eg B flat F C G) then 2 notes in position (Bflat + C, F + G,C + D, G + A) then up and down each string (ABC#D, FGABflat, etc). Also work on crossing strings while gradually adding notes and complexity.You might repeat each note many times at first but work towards single-note running passages. Finally look for passages in say Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Mahler excerpts that require a range of dynamics and styles.
I failed to mention anywhere above that hair tension, height of bounce and angle of drop are some more variables to include with bow length, bow weight and contact point in experimenting. The aim is to produce distinct notes with control over rythm length dynamics and tone, and with no sign of weak or double bounce.
Cheers.....
DP
Reasons, (1) The E string is heaviest and usually played in the lower half of the bow for all but long notes. Here the more direct weight of the arm on the string is spread evenly across the width of hair, (2) As the strings progressively become thinner and lighter they need less hair contact to move them but some hair working harder keeps the sound focused and guarantees more control of timing and coordinating between hands.
Someone once asked, "would doubling, tripling or quadrupling the width of hair (by taping bows together) progressively increase the volume?" I haven't tried it but my answer would be "No" because you are spreading the same weight across a wider surface area. On the other hand many cheaper trade bows coming from Germany in the 50' and 60s, usually brazilwood or pernambuco, had too narrow a ribbon of hair to function well. What a waste of good materials!! Well made French bows (ie from France) seem always to have had wider hair.
Relating this to spiccato you can see that success comes after a lot of experimenting on your bass and strings with your bow, rosin and technique to find the physical comfort and sound you want. Start experimenting on one note per string (eg B flat F C G) then 2 notes in position (Bflat + C, F + G,C + D, G + A) then up and down each string (ABC#D, FGABflat, etc). Also work on crossing strings while gradually adding notes and complexity.You might repeat each note many times at first but work towards single-note running passages. Finally look for passages in say Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Mahler excerpts that require a range of dynamics and styles.
I failed to mention anywhere above that hair tension, height of bounce and angle of drop are some more variables to include with bow length, bow weight and contact point in experimenting. The aim is to produce distinct notes with control over rythm length dynamics and tone, and with no sign of weak or double bounce.
Cheers.....
DP
...very helpful exercise, but when there is a bunch of fast 16's, as in Scherzo, does the Spiccato technique dictate a preference of downbow vs upbow on the down-beat? Maybe the up's and down's are circumstantial??
It's just that with German bow I find it easy and natural to blast out 16's very accurately if I start with a downbow (ie downbow on the down-beat, or downbow on the "dig" in: dig-ga dig-ga dig-ga dig-ga.)
