Double Bass Spiro question...

[travshorts]

Hello all

Just a quick question(s) but hoping for an answer. Why does the D string from spiro's sound different and louder than the rest? I have strung up quite a few basses with both S42 and 3885 with either mittel or weich and I get the same result every time no matter what the bass. I, like many others have posted, put up with it because because it's worth it for all the greatness otherwise.

But wouldn't it be better if it just matched? Is there a reason?

Thanks!

 

[Jason Sypher]

I have my doubts about this. Are you letting them settle in and playing them for a month or so? I guess I have my doubts because I play them and they are perfectly even for me.
I have found that my ears perceive strings differently, often in the beginning when I'm making a change but once the strings and my ears settle, the strings become me again, my sound. I believe that much of the string debate, I'll even go as far as the bass debate, depends on getting used to what you are playing and allowing time for the strings/bass to 'become you'. If I play anything for a little while I seem to end up sounding pretty much 'like me' no matter what I'm playing. Now, don't flame me, I also happen to have a nice bass and all that, but get hip to the concept of sound really starts and ends with YOU. Strings, amps, bows, carved, ply, cabinets, 3/4, 7/8....in the end, to 99 percent of the ears out there, you just sound like you play....(no derailing intended)

 

[Thumpie]

I've played Spiros for years on different basses, and I've never noticed anything on the D string. My current set-up with weichen is very evenly balanced on my specific bass.

Is it possible that all the basses you've used have a wolf on D that is only activated by Spiros? Maybe. Sprios are rich, resonate strings, and can wolf where others don't.

Here's another possible reason why you might think it is so: the resonating frequency of the room you practice in might be close to D.

I'd also consider what Sypher said.

 

[drurb]

I've found the S42 mittels to be very even and balanced on every bass I've had 'em on. Some report that the E is a bit weak. It sure is not on my bass.

I agree as well with Jason's sentiments and, as I've said here before, it's a combination of the instrument, the strings, and the player. I think the influence of the player is often underestimated, in line with what Jason said.

Thumpie may really be on to something if you've evaluated those different basses in a common room.

 

[travshorts]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm more alone on this than I think.

Jason - Yeah, they stay on for a good amount of time. I work at a rental shop and we string up lots of different basses. The basses will go out and come back 6 months, maybe a year later and although they have definitely settled compared to when they are fresh, the D string is always the string that sounds different to me. It has a different tone than the rest. And I agree with the "your sound" concept. When I am in the heat of the moment, I always just sound like me. There is also something that I kind of like conceptually about not having a perfectly matched set of strings, depending on what I am playing. This is more about just something I have noticed over the years stringing up basses with spiros.

Thumpie - I don't think it is a wolf. It's not just open D but any notes on the D string. And yes, I wondered if it was a room resonance problem so I would bring various basses to different rooms in the building but still have the same result.

I would also edit my earlier post slightly. The D string is not louder on every bass. But in my experience more often that not. I figure on the ones that do, it is more of a body resonance thing. But the tone of the D is always different than the rest. It's not unbearable. Just different.

Where it really jumps out is with the bow. To my ears, no matter what bass I play, no matter how long the strings have been on, the tonal spectrum of the D string is different than the rest.

Just curious about other peoples experiences. Thanks for the responses.

 

[drurb]

...It's not just open D but any notes on the D string.

Now, this is crucial information and indicates that it's not a resonance. I assume you're saying that, for example, when you play the first G on the D-string (matching the open G) it's typically experienced by you as louder than the open G. That's just strange and I never experienced that on any bass with Spiros. Is there anything else common to these basses? Were they all set up by the same individual?

I figure on the ones that do, it is more of a body resonance thing.

No, what you describe is not a function of resonance. That's more related to the note and not the string that produces it.

Where it really jumps out is with the bow. To my ears, no matter what bass I play, no matter how long the strings have been on, the tonal spectrum of the D string is different than the rest.

Do you experience this when you hear other people play these basses?

There is also something that I kind of like conceptually about not having a perfectly matched set of strings...

Now, there's something I would never, ever want. I absolutely want the tonal character not to change as I go from string to string. I also want the tonal character to remain fairly constant when I choose to play a closed note on a different string. Of course, we all know that's not the case, (e.g., first closed E on the D-string vs. the same closed note on the A) but it will be closer on a matched set of strings.

 

[Thumpie]

Do other people notice what you are perceiving? I'd bring in some other bass players to see if they notice it too.

What we hear is very subjective, and you might be experiencing something idiosyncratic to your experience of playing on that string. The tactile response could even be conceivably effecting how your brain responds to the sound produced.

There are many, stranger things in the world of neuroscience--take synaesthesia for example. I don't want to go too far into solipsism, but there's a lot going on when we listen!

 

[travshorts]

Drurb,

When it comes to the issue of volume, I find the largest volume jump is on the open D. I can't say if the other notes on the string were louder to my ears. I will check this out on the next rental bass that comes back to the shop with spiros. That's why I thought it was a body resonance thing. I find a lot of basses really like to shake when open D is played (this is what I'm thinking when I used the term body resonance. I'm probably using the wrong term.) but I can usually tame glaring differences with soundpost adjustment. But it's the tonal difference that really made me think of starting this thread. Just this week our shop received a new consignment bass, a Romanian hybrid, set up with spiro weich. The D string volume is balanced but the tonal difference is there.

As far as the common things regarding these instruments, I would say most of them are either Shen, Christopher, or Eastman basses. Ply, hybrid and/or carved. Most setup by myself or others in our shop.

When I hear other people play the basses I don't hear this phenomenon as much as when I'm standing over it myself. It has been my experience that almost any kind of sound issue, less an obvious rattle or buzz, is much more observed by the player and not the listener. It is this reason alone that for the most part in my own playing I don't worry too about perceived tonal discrepancies and just try and be as musical as I can with what I got at that moment.

Regarding my comment about unmatched strings... I was thinking of a free improvised gig years back when it was cool to have different sounds from different strings when I wanted it but, for the other 99% of gigs, I'm with you. I'm looking for balance.

Thanks for the responses. Perhaps you could direct me to a thread regarding resonance so I could get my terminology correct. Cheers!

 

[travshorts]

Do other people notice what you are perceiving? I'd bring in some other bass players to see if they notice it too.

What we hear is very subjective, and you might be experiencing something idiosyncratic to your experience of playing on that string. The tactile response could even be conceivably effecting how your brain responds to the sound produced.

There are many, stranger things in the world of neuroscience--take synaesthesia for example. I don't want to go too far into solipsism, but there's a lot going on when we listen!

I was thinking about this in my response to Drurb. I hope I am not diagnosed with some kind of new condition where Spiro D's sound different only to me.

 

[drurb]

Well, as an auditory scientist, I'd say that Thumpie overstates perceptual idiosyncrasies and cross-modal effects, at least as they relate to this issue. We'll leave that for another time...

Still, Thumpie asked and beat me to posting the important question concerning whether others share your perception. Do other players when playing those basses find that the tonal balance differs on the D-string?

Could it be idiosyncratic to your shop's setup procedures? I doubt it, but that is a shared attribute.

 

[travshorts]

I forgot to say in that last response that yes, while others play these basses they can hear it too. I'm actually kind of surprised that this isn't the case for everyone. I have always thought that spiro D's were just the odd ball of the set and that was that. And I thought I was gonna get a detailed answer about the decision by thomastic to keep the D string the way it is. haha!

I don't think it is our setup. And like I posted earlier, we just received a consignment bass, not set up by us, with the same tonal difference in the D string.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I felt this difference (but pprobably more in sound than volume) of the D-string too with Spiros (S42 and S42W) using the full set. At least in the beginning (first few months).

When I got a Innovation 140B (Braided) set, I first didn't like the E and A because of their short sustain, so I decicded to replace them. I was not sure about the D, so I first thought the Spiros last forever lets try as many Spiros as possible except the G (and high C). So I tried Innovation 140B (C,)G with Spiro Weich S42W E,A,D and the Spiro D didn't fit into the sound of the other strings. Then I replaced the D with the Innovation 140B and everything was fine.
I know that the transition from A to D is less perceptable than from D to G, but it was really extreme with the Spiro D.
After some manual break-in on the Innovation E and A which gave me the sustain I need, I replaced the Spiros completely because the bowing was different with the mix and the sound is more consistent with the complete 140B set.

With my really old S42 set I felt this D-string difference was greatly reduced after years (when the string became very flexible).

But all this is the players experience with the ear at the neck with only one bass and one set of each string type. (The S42 Spiros did last until I decided to try something different with a bit less tension on 109cm).

 

[travshorts]

Just thought I would post some more of my experiences with spiro D's.

About 2 weeks back a couple more rental basses came back to the shop. One with spiro mittels and another with spiro weichs. These basses have had their strings on for about a year. The mittel D is still the strange one to our ears but has definitely mellowed/balanced over time compared to a fresh set just as TBers point out. But the bass with weich sounded very balanced.

I was thinking to try a set of weich on my own bass for awhile now as I love the spiro sound. I posted somewhere else awhile back that I had tried a set of 3885 mittels but the tension on my bass was just too high. So one went the weich. They were very balanced in tone right out of the package, minus the twangy G. And the D was great right out of the box. Tension is a lot nicer and the volume is up. The mittels probably choked my bass a bit.

Now that they have been on for a couple of weeks the G has calmed down to an acceptable level. Probably the strangest thing was how thin in diameter the weich G is. Very different than what I'm used to but it didn't take long for me to not really notice it anymore. Great with the bow. Great with the amp. Not as much of the good spiro growl as mittels but that works out well in some of my gigs. Gonna try and get a few years out of them before getting the sweats to try something else.

I still think that for the most part, from my experiences, the D string is still the odd man out. I feel it it is more noticeable on the mittel set than on the weich. I have also wondered if, since we order many strings at a time for the fleet of basses at our shop, there was a possibility we were just victims of an odd batch of D's? Anyways, having a great time with the weich set.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I once combined S42W Spiro Weich 4/4 with Innovation 140B (Braided). I first tried to keep as many Spiros as possible, with a 140B G and a prototype high C because I didn't wanted the high C to differ from the G in sound, but the Spiro D was standing out, the 140B D has fit much better.
Keeping the Spiro E and A with the 140B D, G and high C was OK, later I changed to a complete 140B set because it was more consistent to bow.

 

[RenanDias]

I experienced the same thing on my bass, D string Spiro Mittel was much louder than the rest, and E was very weak. They are three y-old.

I was sure that it was a major carachteristic of my bass (Chinesse full carved) and was kinda used to it, but not happy.
Then I tested a Eva Pirazzi Weich set and they were all even, strong E and balanced D and G.