Split coil style pickups...

[Projectile]

I've been doing some reading about different pickup designs and configurations and I haven't found much technical information on the the p-bass style split pup design. I have a few questions if anyone can help me out with my curiosities:

Why are the p-bass split pickups staggered, as opposed to the split jazz design where the two coils are directly side by side? What is the purpose/advantages of this staggered design?

Why is this staggered spit coil type design so rarely found in guitars? I've seen a few p-style split pups built into a humbucker shell on the internet, but they seem quite rare. The design has been so successful for basses I'm surprise that you almost never see them in guitars. Why?

 

[David Jayne]

Pretty sure it's simply because that's the only way it would fit. The coils are too large to place them end-to-end.

 

[Projectile]

Pretty sure it's simply because that's the only way it would fit. The coils are too large to place them end-to-end.

I've seen split jazz style pickups where the coils are placed end to end.

 

[David Jayne]

Me too, but the coils are smaller. Different sound.

 

[Projectile]

Okay, so it's just because the larger coils wouldn't fit end to end? Can anyone else confirm this? How exactly do larger coils effect the sound? Is it just higher output? Are there any other reasons to stagger a pickup like that? Does it effect the sound in any other way?

Also, I'm still curious as to why this staggered design is almost never used on guitars.

 

[quee]

The pickup was developed to cancel hum, one coil is wound in the opposite direction with reversed polarity magnets, so the signals from the strings are in phase but any electromagnetic interference is cancelled.
You can only guess that when Leo Fender developed the pickup the coil wire was not as fine as was later possible so a reasonably large coil was needed to get a bigger number of windings and produce a stronger signal.

 

[Rune Bivrin]

And to add to that: The greater the number of turns on the coils, the less treble you'll get, due to higher inductance and (to some degreee) more leakage capacitance.

 

[line6man]

No offense, but this is one of the stupidest questions i have seen.
Isn't it obvious that they are staggered because they are too large to fit side by side? linear humbucking pickups are common these days (you mentioned the jazz bass pickups), but the coils are smaller, resulting in a lower output.
When Leo Fender designed the pickup, he probably wasn't too concerned with making them fit side by side. If the pickup had to be so large that they would have to stagger on top of each other, then thats just the way the pickup would have to be.

Some people argue that it makes the D and G strings brighter and the E and A strings bassier, that could be another possible reason.

 

[NickInMesa]

The size only is not the reason why they are staggered and not side by side and I do not think this is a stupid question.

I actually thought about it plenty of times, but always guessed that, since the design is now a standard, it had a good reason to be this way.

There are other bass guitar humbuckers that are not in this split configuration, for instance the MM pickup. Or even the two single coils on an 80s PV Foundation will act as one giant humbucker when you turn both at 10.

Yes, they are wound in opposite directions, but why they are short and split and not longer, I'd like to know too.

Probably some Fender historian could tell us?

 

[fender3x]

Not a stupid question. Not an obvious answer either. It's not the size. There are lots of side by side J pups with just as many wraps. The coil can be deeper to compensate for any lack of width, no problem.

This was, as I understand it, one of Leo fender's first attempts to get the advantages of both SC and HB pickups in a single pup. More full tone than standard HB, but still bucks hum and is higher output than standard SC. It persisted because it works so well, but it's not the only way! (see DiMarzio J pups for example).

The main unique quality of the stagger is that it allows each coil to "pick up" the string at a different spot. In standard config, it makes the E and A a little darker than they would be otherwise, and D and G a little brighter. Some makers have reversed this (Dean's for example).

 

[fender3x]

Not a stupid question. Not an obvious answer either. It's not the size. There are lots of side by side J pups with just as many wraps. The coil can be deeper to compensate for any lack of width, no problem.

This was, as I understand it, one of Leo fender's first attempts to get the advantages of both SC and HB pickups in a single pup. More full tone than standard HB, but still bucks hum and is higher output than standard SC. It persisted because it works so well, but it's not the only way! (see DiMarzio J pups for example).

The main unique quality of the stagger is that it allows each coil to "pick up" the string at a different spot. In standard config, it makes the E and A a little darker than they would be otherwise, and D and G a little brighter. Some makers have reversed this (Dean's for example).

BTW it's also been used in guitars... Some fender 12 strings (maybe others), some G&Ls some MM's (I think). All axes designed by Leo Fender...who really loved experimenting with pup design.

 

[mikezimmerman]

I've seen split jazz style pickups where the coils are placed end to end.

Yes, but those were developed many years later. Fender started using the split-coil pickup for the Precision well before the Jazz bass had been released, and even then, they were equipped with single coils. It was many years after that before split Jazz-style pickups came out.

Mike

 

[Phalex]

I've seen it on a guitar:

A friend of mine made this whole thing, PUP included. It sounds great BTW.

 

[fender3x]

Yes, but those were developed many years later. Fender started using the split-coil pickup for the Precision well before the Jazz bass had been released, and even then, they were equipped with single coils. It was many years after that before split Jazz-style pickups came out.

What differs in the end-to-end style is that they are not staggered...but it's a similar design. I think the idea is to get closer to the full range of a single coil, with the increased output and humcancelling of a humbucker. I have a set like that on a jazz...mainly to avoid having to rout for p-type pickups.

As to the jazz coming along later with single coils...Historians may correct me, but I think that was Leo Fender experimenting, again, to get more full range sound, with hum canceling properties. The two single coils on a jazz are hum canceling when set at similar volumes plus the "second" pickup in the bridge position gives it more of a full upper register--the growl. In a way it's still LF trying to get the best of both worlds--humbucking and single coil--in the same beast.

In some ways all of his enduring bass designs did something new and innovative with the pickups. Precisions have just one sound but it's a great one--balanced and better than probably any SC or HB pickup of the time. Jazzes have most of the advantages of the P, and add some cool tones making them a little more versatile. MM's add active EQ and a new sweet spot. G&Ls have an incredible range of usable tones. The man was a genius.

 

[GlennW]

I've seen a few p-style split pups built into a humbucker shell on the internet, but they seem quite rare.

There's a very good chance that those pickups have two full length coils like guitar HB's; but only have half the poles in each coil, and have a bar magnet between the sets of poles (like regular HB's) to give the coils opposite polarities. I've seen some made that way.

 

[savit260]

In some ways all of his enduring bass designs did something new and innovative with the pickups. Precisions have just one sound but it's a great one--balanced and better than probably any SC or HB pickup of the time. Jazzes have most of the advantages of the P, and add some cool tones making them a little more versatile. MM's add active EQ and a new sweet spot. G&Ls have an incredible range of usable tones. The man was a genius.

You all seem to be forgeting something important here.

In 1956, there were NO humbucking pickkups on the market of any kind, bass or guitar.

The Precision Split Coil Bass Pickup, and the Seth Lover designed Gibson Guitar Humbuckers were in development at the same time, although Seth Lover gerneraly gets the credit for the Humbucker concept.
Not sure which one hit the market first, but they both hit the market in 1957. There was no standard to be followed at that point in time.
Gibson did it one way, with two long skinny side by side coils in a guitar pickup, and Leo did it with two low fat staggered coils.


In the years after that, there have been a few variations on the theme, and packaging of the concept.


Check out G&L Z coil pickups for a modern guitar version of this concept.


The low and wide coils are a big part of the split coil P bass sound. After discussing this with a couple of hot shot pickup winders, I've been informed that the Split coil P sound can't be replicated in a tall skinny split coil. So, the sound Leo may have desired, probalby required low wide coils that were too big to put side by side.

 

[Projectile]

Thanks for the responses guys. This is all very interesting.

I'm still surprised that the split p design is so rare in guitars. There must be a reason for this. I'm surprised after it being so successful in the p-bass that Leo didn't implement the design into his guitars. There must have been some reason that the design was basically limited to bass.

 

[GlennW]

I'm still surprised that the split p design is so rare in guitars. There must be a reason for this.

There is a reason, money. More time and more materials mean more production expense. Plus, most guitar players are either into Gibson style HB's (and variations) or single coils.

Leo wasn't into HB's either. Look at all the different Fender basses and guitars made between 1951 and 1965 and see how many have HB's and how many have SC's.

I'd guess he tried a few different designs when he switched from the SCPB to the split coil, probably even something like a P-90 with four and/or eight alnico rods. The shorter and fatter coil is similar to the split P. It may have been too noisey so he split it up, RW/RPed the coils, and made the split-P pickup that we all know and love and replace. Just guessing...

 

[fender3x]

Leo wasn't into HB's either...

Maybe not then...but look at the MM and G&L basses.

 

[Projectile]

There is a reason, money. More time and more materials mean more production expense. Plus, most guitar players are either into Gibson style HB's (and variations) or single coils.

Leo wasn't into HB's either. Look at all the different Fender basses and guitars made between 1951 and 1965 and see how many have HB's and how many have SC's.

I'd guess he tried a few different designs when he switched from the SCPB to the split coil, probably even something like a P-90 with four and/or eight alnico rods. The shorter and fatter coil is similar to the split P. It may have been too noisey so he split it up, RW/RPed the coils, and made the split-P pickup that we all know and love and replace. Just guessing...

Interesting speculation, but I'm not buying it. We're talking late 50s when the split p was invented, which was before everything got standardized into the common pickup configurations everybody loves and uses. Split coil designs don't seem to be any more expensive than the common humbucker. Someone would have implemented some variation of the split p design into a common commercial guitar if there wasn't a technical reason not to. Where are the pickup gurus at?