Splitting a sub gig

[2112]

As both a BL and a sub, I see it from both sides:

• As a BL, I'm going to want to pay one share for the one part. But, I understand the deal has to be worth it for the subs, so I might have to pay more... especially if I want to hire more than one sub for the part, regardless of how I split the playing time.
• As a sub, my rate is usually higher than a standard share, and it will depend on how many new songs I have to learn, how fast I have to learn them, and other factors surrounding the logistics of the gig.

Regardless of my role, I want it all settled out BEFORE I agree to book the gig.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Really if i was the BL, i wouldn't book two bass players for a single gig. I think that is a messy move on his part. As for pay, i truly don't know since it's a pretty odd scenario. I'd probably consider pulling some of my own pay to keep everyone else happy.

 

[JazznFunk]

I think of the old phrase 'can't ride 2 horses with one arse.' Might just have to pick one or the other to avoid the logistical overlap nightmares. I've never only done part of a gig. All or nothing if I'm going to commit.

 

[peteybass]

I like the idea of just doing it and have fun. You are helping everyone out and it will come back to you. They have always been fair in the past so until that changes your chill attitude is great... Sounds like you can just run in use the existing rig and take off.

 

[MingusBass]

I would say you get 1/3rd of the bass position pay, and half of the band leaders pay for saving his @$$.

 

[Dominic D]

In this situation I’d be doing them a favor, so I’d be expect full pay. As a fill-in I’m not concerned with what the rest of the band gets paid.

 

[themickster]

So, this is just a curiosity post...I'm not trying to figure out what to do, but the circumstance seemed like it might be interesting enough to toss around, maybe not.

I'm the regular sub with a band that gets decent to very good gigs. And straight at start I'll say, this is where I suspect I'll already lose some portion of people reading, but the routine is that they ask if I can sub and I say whether I can or not...I'm not generally told how much unless there's something notable and I don't feel the need to ask. I've been doing this close to 10 years with them. It's an even split deal and the overall situation is close, friendly and no-one is a FT player. I usually get between $200-400 as an even member split. I can generally tell either from past experience or the type of event roughly where that'll fall, so needing to know or them feeling the need to tell me faded away a long time ago. I've never been disappointed, and this band has been the one with my two highest paying gigs ever.

So, we have one tomorrow where when I was asked, I said I couldn't do it because I'm booked. They came back and said the only other person immediately available doesn't know a good portion of the songs and asked if there was any possibility that I could do part of the gig? Looking at the times, it was tight but I could play the two of three sets and make it to my other gig, so we decided on that.

With not so much time left (a bit over a week ago), fortunately I noticed online that the venue had a start time an hour later than we talked about. I contacted the BL right away and said that being the case, it really didn't seem to make sense to spend more time driving than I will playing...certainly they can come up with enough songs that the other guy knows to cover one set. He checked and the insistence was that that still wanted me to do it because it'll allow them to play some of the more important songs that he's just not going to get and I can still get on the road at the same time, which is the important thing.

I agreed to do it with a sigh, it's done, I'll go and play just the first set and go.

You're the BL in the situation...are you doing a six way split instead of five or trying to re-split one share between the two bass subs?

Yeah, yeah, I know some are saying "This wouldn't be an issue for me because I NEVER agree to play without knowing the pay" or "That's the first thing I would have thought of!" or "I'd tell them to give me a full five-way split or I'd never work with them again! Well, it didn't occur to me and I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch regardless...it's just not that type of situation.

It's easy for us to say what to, when it's not us it's happening to. Do what's right for you.

 

[drpepper]

It went well and was fun. The wife and I had a nice lunch and a beer. Didn't talk in detail about the money but it's looking like it's going to be splitting the bass share...not cool but lesson learned if the situation comes up again (once I said I'd do it, he decompressed and the value of the good will and favor of it evaporated).

In the end, interesting but not a big deal.

And now off to #2 with fingers crossed that it doesn't rain...

 

[drpepper]

And the final update: gig 2 did end up getting called about an hour before start time because of near certainty of coming rain. Not getting to play there was the real disappointment of the day. Even though there was clouds, right up to the last minute, it looked like the attendance would have been very good. It's a popular summer concert series on a lake here, and at 90 minutes out people were already staking out their spots. As we were loading back out, a decent number of people were streaming in.

So, in the end and in terms of getting the enjoyment of some playing time (which is one of the primary points for me), gig #1 actually worked out to be the saving grace of the day. You just never know...

Some fun was had

Much less so

 

[Chaputa]

This is getting into vague territory.
If a band uses a few subs, they are basically a pickup band, imv.
Therefore, the slot goes to the preferred option on the night. However, with regularity, the band 'assumes' member identity, at which point they expect to be on every gig, even though that wasnt the remit originally.

If it was a band first, then yep, you should be first call. If it was a pickup band, then turning into a band is likely a hijack by someone, not necessarily the 'BL'...
Difficult to determine motive in that scenario...or even if you can find out who pushed that 'new policy'...

This is getting into vague territory.
If a band uses a few subs, they are basically a pickup band, imv.
Therefore, the slot goes to the preferred option on the night. However, with regularity, the band 'assumes' member identity, at which point they expect to be on every gig, even though that wasnt the remit originally.

If it was a band first, then yep, you should be first call. If it was a pickup band, then turning into a band is likely a hijack by someone, not necessarily the 'BL'...
Difficult to determine motive in that scenario...or even if you can find out who pushed that 'new policy'...

Yeah, trying to keep a little vague to prevent calling anyone out. Core is, band has been around for almost a decade as a bar band. I joined 5 years back. Been a band in the true sense (no subs) up until we started working with a entertainment company right after covid lockdowns started easing up. We turned down gigs, initially, when we weren't all available. As we got more calls for fill-ins (last minute gigs) we started adding subs in the mix when either the drummer or I had a previous engagement. This was fine, but where it turned south was the ask to leave gigs open for subs on a regular interval so they could keep their schedule open for gigs our band was asked for at the last minute (again, pick-ups/fill-ins).

I do understand the sub sacrifice/catch-up, availability as well as the level of experience they bring all factor into items like requesting dates as well as commiserate pay (all subs I saw were paid 1.5-3x what we were - given the 5 way split we normally do). What I'm trying to figure out is, as a sub, what is "normal" or expected, or not outside the realm of an ask of a band?

My situation was pretty much dead after the BL agreed to discuss gigs for subs prior to asking subs, and went back on it a few days later with another high-paying gig. The drummer an I were relegated to helping the others practice, get a high propensity to lose the higher paying gigs to the subs, and get lower pay than the subs on any gig. Just a crap deal. Ultimately, I think the BL was trying to build out a pickup band style so they can have more control - just not sure it makes fiscal sense, but not my problem anymore.

...but am curious if there are general tenants/rules that subs go by?

 

[51PRI]

So, this is just a curiosity post...I'm not trying to figure out what to do, but the circumstance seemed like it might be interesting enough to toss around, maybe not.

I'm the regular sub with a band that gets decent to very good gigs. And straight at start I'll say, this is where I suspect I'll already lose some portion of people reading, but the routine is that they ask if I can sub and I say whether I can or not...I'm not generally told how much unless there's something notable and I don't feel the need to ask. I've been doing this close to 10 years with them. It's an even split deal and the overall situation is close, friendly and no-one is a FT player. I usually get between $200-400 as an even member split. I can generally tell either from past experience or the type of event roughly where that'll fall, so needing to know or them feeling the need to tell me faded away a long time ago. I've never been disappointed, and this band has been the one with my two highest paying gigs ever.

So, we have one tomorrow where when I was asked, I said I couldn't do it because I'm booked. They came back and said the only other person immediately available doesn't know a good portion of the songs and asked if there was any possibility that I could do part of the gig? Looking at the times, it was tight but I could play the two of three sets and make it to my other gig, so we decided on that.

With not so much time left (a bit over a week ago), fortunately I noticed online that the venue had a start time an hour later than we talked about. I contacted the BL right away and said that being the case, it really didn't seem to make sense to spend more time driving than I will playing...certainly they can come up with enough songs that the other guy knows to cover one set. He checked and the insistence was that that still wanted me to do it because it'll allow them to play some of the more important songs that he's just not going to get and I can still get on the road at the same time, which is the important thing.

I agreed to do it with a sigh, it's done, I'll go and play just the first set and go.

You're the BL in the situation...are you doing a six way split instead of five or trying to re-split one share between the two bass subs?

Yeah, yeah, I know some are saying "This wouldn't be an issue for me because I NEVER agree to play without knowing the pay" or "That's the first thing I would have thought of!" or "I'd tell them to give me a full five-way split or I'd never work with them again! Well, it didn't occur to me and I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch regardless...it's just not that type of situation.

I was in a similar situation. I was subbing on guitar with a friend's band but I had just joined a different band playing keys. Both first gigs with the two bands were at the same festival. Weird. Anyway, my friend wanted me to join full time, but since I had just joined the other band I had to turn it down, even though I did play several more sub gigs with them. Anyway, they were looking for a full time guitarist and finally found one just before another upcoming festival. So, at that festival, I played the first part of the show and the other guy, who I knew and got along with, played the second half of the show. The money was split evenly between all 6 players.

 

[MrLenny1]

Wow, too much work. That's a good thing.
You're doing good by helping out the BL.

 

[pepj]

I think the BL definitely wants a pickup band. Reasons for this might be he wants to reset the fees he pays. Maybe he thinks it has more potential but he is driving a change.
The decision is do you go along with it or quit.

 

[Chaputa]

I think the BL definitely wants a pickup band. Reasons for this might be he wants to reset the fees he pays. Maybe he thinks it has more potential but he is driving a change.
The decision is do you go along with it or quit.

Yup...exactly how I stated, that our definition for what and how we want to proceed with the band has shifted, and we're no longer aligned. Its the things not said. Its the things that were walked back on (or outright lies). These were the items for me leaving.

Still trying to get a feel for how subs do things - like structure fees or asking for locked-in dates - the latter seemed a little odd to me as a reason - part of why I feel that as I quoted, they wanted the drummer and I out so they can restructure the band for what they want. Their prerogative, just thought it was quite underhanded (and not a direct result of the subs).

 

[pepj]

i think Subs agree to work as per the term or deal presented or turn it down.
This is for a cold call type thing whereby the two parties have no previous relationships.
I dont generally take those..but you might get a friend of a friend type referral.

The fee is a split...but this can be only what the BL wants to pay rather than an equal split so this might mean why subs dictate their fee upfront.

Personally I dont want all that hassle so i generally do it if it suits me.
I dont work more than 2hrs playing time, I dont drive more than 1hr to the gig. I need videos and a recommendation. And I want to want to play the gig.

However, for a really nice sounding gig with top players and nice venue, looked after etc etc..the money is the least concern but then these arent likely to be cheap gigs either.
When I book someone, I'm only selling what I'd buy myself, I'm not selling any old gig, imv, so expect same back.

 

[drpepper]

...Its the things not said. Its the things that were walked back on (or outright lies). These were the items for me leaving.

Still trying to get a feel for how subs do things...

Once again, that sounds like a crap sandwich...sorry to hear you had to deal with that.

That said, trying to nail down "how subs do things" is kind of like trying to nail down "how bands do things"; it's incredibly broad. Because many situations run in similar veins the will likely be various sets of commonalities that you'll find, but certainly not one way that subs do things.

Reasons why bands decide to or are even willing to use subs can vary. If a band does fill-ins at all, the positions and pools of subs can differ, i.e., ranging from any qualified person who has put their sub shingle out to only former band members and everything in between. Rates and determinations on how pay is scaled can vary greatly (as the views in this thread point at). Other aspects of arrangements vary.

It seems to me that for someone like yourself who, from what you've posted, seems to be thinking, "I might be interested putting myself out there as a sub," a first thing to consider is to look at your personal circumstances and evaluate what opportunities might be open to you to begin with.

I would think that for non-full time musicians, the vast majority of fill-ins are known, very close/familiar individuals followed by very close/familiar recommendations.

If you don't have situations that would tend to make you a candidate, the question before getting to how people who sub do things would seem to be is, "how does someone go about finding and building fill-in opportunities?"

 

[Chaputa]

Once again, that sounds like a crap sandwich...sorry to hear you had to deal with that.

That said, trying to nail down "how subs do things" is kind of like trying to nail down "how bands do things"; it's incredibly broad. Because many situations run in similar veins the will likely be various sets of commonalities that you'll find, but certainly not one way that subs do things.

Reasons why bands decide to or are even willing to use subs can vary. If a band does fill-ins at all, the positions and pools of subs can differ, i.e., ranging from any qualified person who has put their sub shingle out to only former band members and everything in between. Rates and determinations on how pay is scaled can vary greatly (as the views in this thread point at). Other aspects of arrangements vary.

It seems to me that for someone like yourself who, from what you've posted, seems to be thinking, "I might be interested putting myself out there as a sub," a first thing to consider is to look at your personal circumstances and evaluate what opportunities might be open to you to begin with.

I would think that for non-full time musicians, the vast majority of fill-ins are known, very close/familiar individuals followed by very close/familiar recommendations.

If you don't have situations that would tend to make you a candidate, the question before getting to how people who sub do things would seem to be is, "how does someone go about finding and building fill-in opportunities?"

Thanks drpepper. Yeah, a little torqued on the situation, but trying to get a handle on the direction. I've played with 4 different sub drummers over 2 years when our drummer was busy, and they were all payed differently as well as more than the normal share. Now these were all 1-time runs from what I witnessed in terms of pay, but I do know that 2 of the drummers had filled in multiple times (when I was out). Just seems odd that the band would "want" subs given this charge, and I thought it odd that the subs would sign up for less than they got with the earlier gigs. Just perplexed as to how it has worked for others in the sub position.

Thanks!