About The Byrds: they have owned up to session players playing on the single Mr. Tambourine Man, but the rest of that contested first album was them. The charming naivete and sense of musical possibilities on the Gene Clark songs in particular was palpable, and look at the massive bass mistake on the version of Dylan's Spanish Harlem Incident- as Hillman has said, no seasoned session bassist is gonna make charming screwups like that!
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Steppenwolf- who's on first bass??
- Thread starter So Low Bass
- Start date
I loved Steppenwolf's first album...Always thought the band was excellent. I checked out this youtube clip and it's too bad the audio isn't synched with the video. )-(
I began my studio work in 1974. I worked occasionally at K&K Studio City in Great Neck, Long Island, N.Y., for Katz and Kasanetz, they were producers known for a lot of the 'bubble gum' as it was termed - music of the late 60's. The Music Explosion's "A Little Bit Of Soul" is a good example of their work. Better put, it is an example of the work of players like myself, drummer Tommy Coyne, and guitarist Bob Kulick, among many others. This was their method, to use local unknown musicians, pay them as little as possible, and create the music for the staff songwriters under contract to them.
If they went somewhere and saw a band they liked, they would sign the band, and replace the players they didn't like, or simply do nothing with the band at all, just use the name!
I, of course did those sessions for the experience of doing them, and for the chance to meet great session players... I'm glad I did them. I never played on any 'hits' but did get a single out of the deal. Many producers were using players other than band members to play on the recordings slated for release to try to get a hit. This was the prime objective for all of them for the obvious reasons. The posts I'm reading on here seem for the most part, to imply that this was pretty much how all or most of the records were made during that time, and that is simply incorrect! If you bought a record by a band, say like Steppenwolf...the band members didn't need to be replaced on the sessions by studio musicians. The reasons for this are logical and true. 1. The band's members were at least as gifted players as the studio musicians that would replace them if they weren't. 2. The members spent the time with the writer/ leader learning and evolving the music prior to recording it. Does anyone think In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida is not the full Iron Butterfly band on it? What about Deep Purple, or Jefferson Airplane?
There were a lot of records made in the 60's that were indeed all the band members playing on them. I think the session players were called in after the larger record companies decided to hire producers to make- or better said, guarantee a hit. Then, the 'Wrecking Crew' would be called in. Joe Osborn is on a lot of records made then, but he doesn't sound like Nick St. Nicholas, Lee Dorman, or Jack Casady. They're all great bassists!
If they went somewhere and saw a band they liked, they would sign the band, and replace the players they didn't like, or simply do nothing with the band at all, just use the name!
I, of course did those sessions for the experience of doing them, and for the chance to meet great session players... I'm glad I did them. I never played on any 'hits' but did get a single out of the deal. Many producers were using players other than band members to play on the recordings slated for release to try to get a hit. This was the prime objective for all of them for the obvious reasons. The posts I'm reading on here seem for the most part, to imply that this was pretty much how all or most of the records were made during that time, and that is simply incorrect! If you bought a record by a band, say like Steppenwolf...the band members didn't need to be replaced on the sessions by studio musicians. The reasons for this are logical and true. 1. The band's members were at least as gifted players as the studio musicians that would replace them if they weren't. 2. The members spent the time with the writer/ leader learning and evolving the music prior to recording it. Does anyone think In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida is not the full Iron Butterfly band on it? What about Deep Purple, or Jefferson Airplane?
There were a lot of records made in the 60's that were indeed all the band members playing on them. I think the session players were called in after the larger record companies decided to hire producers to make- or better said, guarantee a hit. Then, the 'Wrecking Crew' would be called in. Joe Osborn is on a lot of records made then, but he doesn't sound like Nick St. Nicholas, Lee Dorman, or Jack Casady. They're all great bassists!
Thanks for the kind words...it just was what I needed to say. Because I think a little common sense and the relating of experiences by bassists who actually were around back then (I'm 56 now) to understand the reality of what was happening. Once more- I love the session bassists, but I also love the work of Joe Shermie (Three Dog Night) Glen Cornick (Jethro Tull) Gerald Johnson (Steve Miller Band) and my all time favorite band member bassist-not session cat- bass pioneer John Entwistle!
I would say Nashville was always like that...ever see The Buddy Holly Story?
I'll admit-
I am shocked to hear a '60s RnR band like Steppenwolf had ghosted players on their records.
X
X Wolf
Guest
For a list of credits on Steppenwolf albums:
Go to www.steppenwolf.com then click Discography or Family Tree.
Nick was a member of the pre Steppenwolf band "The Sparrow" The Bass player on the first and second Steppenwolf albums was Rushton Moreve who was with the band in '67 and '68. Nick did not rejoin the band until the third album. Nick was replaced by George Biondo who played on all recordings with the band from April of '70 to Oct of '76 when the original band officially ended. Jack Ryland only played on an experimental project with members of the band after the band had broken up that was never officially released, I believe it was named the "Lost Heritage Tapes". From '67 to '76 AFAIK there were no "Ghost" bass players involved. John Kay did 2 solo albums during the time around '72-'73 and George Biondo played on the first one "Forgotten Songs & Unsung Heroes" and Lee Sklar played on the second one "My Sportin Life" with 2 of the tracks played by George Biondo. There is a Wikipedia page on George with a full list of Albums/CD's recorded with Steppenwolf and/or John Kay.
John Kay went on to form "John Kay and Steppenwolf" which had no one from the original band and he used many different players down through the years until this last year when he retired. There was no bass player for about the last fifteen years and the bass parts were sampled and/or synthesized in live performances.
Hope that helps.
By the way there are two youtube videos from 1970 with George on bass and backing vocals that you might find interesting "Steppenwolf Screaming Night Hog" and
"Steppenwolf Snowblind Friend" which were both live in the studio recordings.
Go to www.steppenwolf.com then click Discography or Family Tree.
Nick was a member of the pre Steppenwolf band "The Sparrow" The Bass player on the first and second Steppenwolf albums was Rushton Moreve who was with the band in '67 and '68. Nick did not rejoin the band until the third album. Nick was replaced by George Biondo who played on all recordings with the band from April of '70 to Oct of '76 when the original band officially ended. Jack Ryland only played on an experimental project with members of the band after the band had broken up that was never officially released, I believe it was named the "Lost Heritage Tapes". From '67 to '76 AFAIK there were no "Ghost" bass players involved. John Kay did 2 solo albums during the time around '72-'73 and George Biondo played on the first one "Forgotten Songs & Unsung Heroes" and Lee Sklar played on the second one "My Sportin Life" with 2 of the tracks played by George Biondo. There is a Wikipedia page on George with a full list of Albums/CD's recorded with Steppenwolf and/or John Kay.
John Kay went on to form "John Kay and Steppenwolf" which had no one from the original band and he used many different players down through the years until this last year when he retired. There was no bass player for about the last fifteen years and the bass parts were sampled and/or synthesized in live performances.
Hope that helps.
By the way there are two youtube videos from 1970 with George on bass and backing vocals that you might find interesting "Steppenwolf Screaming Night Hog" and
"Steppenwolf Snowblind Friend" which were both live in the studio recordings.
For some reason I thought I had already posted that info, but I can see I was wrong in looking back over the thread. Very important for people to know, thanks for setting the record straight; here I was thinking it already was straight!
Thanks for the reply X Wolf! It's nice to have a name for those basslines, I didn't think they were from one of the studio aces of the time. It's also cool to know Moreve received a writers credit for Magic Carpet Ride, it's a hip groove! He must have been only 19 when he did some of those parts.
Hi..great info, I always was under the impression that Nick St. Nicholas and Rushton Moreve were the same person, an alias if you will....hmmm.
X
X Wolf
Guest
They were in fact definitely two very different people. Nick is still around but Rushton is unfortunately....deceased.
George
I broght this thread up again because I found it SO interesting and thought that perhaps some more people could enlighten me.
That SOUND!
That SOUND!
If I remember correctly Rushton quit the band after he became convinced that California was going to slide into the Pacific ocean and sort of freaked out. I was a huge Steppenwolf fan and still have my old vinyl LPs which have since been replaced by the CD releases. Steppenwolf 7 is a great album with George Biondo on bass, one of my favs. There was also a TV special back in the '70 - '71 time frame where they played most of that album. I'd love to have a copy of that, but to my knowledge it's never been released.
The last I heard from a guitar player I used to work with who knew him Goldie was a greens keeper at a golf course in West Seattle. Now that guy is hands down my fav rock organist.
The last I heard from a guitar player I used to work with who knew him Goldie was a greens keeper at a golf course in West Seattle. Now that guy is hands down my fav rock organist.
btw, some studio musician (especially carol) take credit for a lot of stuff they didn't do. for example, carol once tried to tell everyone that session musicians played on the doors' albums because they sucked as musicians. now while it's true that carol did play a few tracks, the doors absolutely did NOT suck as musicians and evidence of their non-suckage is pretty ubiquitous. hell, bernard purdie claims that ringo never once played on a beatles album and that simply is not true at all.
steppenwolf was another band who didn't suck. they were a great band and extremely talented and could easily play their own tracks. might they have called in a session musician from time to time? sure. but i so don't believe the claims of carol kaye that they all sucked and were all replaced by studio musicians. it has happened and it still happens. but not to everyone. plenty out there were great and needed no replacing.
steppenwolf was another band who didn't suck. they were a great band and extremely talented and could easily play their own tracks. might they have called in a session musician from time to time? sure. but i so don't believe the claims of carol kaye that they all sucked and were all replaced by studio musicians. it has happened and it still happens. but not to everyone. plenty out there were great and needed no replacing.
i've read that in the early days a lot of producers would call in session guys whether or not the bands could play.....and it would not be a stretch if those same guys told the session guys that the band guys sucked.....
i do believe that carol played on a lot of the sessions that she says she did,tho' i believe that it is just as plausible that her tracks were not always used....i think you'd enjoy reading the bob babbitt interview..in
it his experiences were very similar to carol's,and i find him to be very credible..if i find it i'll send it to someone who can post it here....often tracks he recorded were re recorded by others,but in the end when bob's got used,the other guy got credited,but they both have pay stubs for the sessions.......that sort of thing
over the years i can see where carol may have forgotten the odd session here and there,but i just can't believe she made it all up
again, i'm not saying it never happened. i'm saying that it's ridiculous to think it happened with EVERYBODY. it definitely did not happen with the doors. and i'm almost positive it didn't happen with steppenwolf. word would have gotten out by now since all that stuff has been exposed and we pretty much know which bands used studio musicians and which ones didn't.
This is correct.No, you are, indeed, correct. Especially in the "pop-country" environment that exists in Nashville today. I have a couple of good friends who make their living laying down tracks for artists like Toby Keith.
After the recording is done, his "band" learns the parts and off they go.....IMO that sucks, but so be it....not my dime..
There are even threads about the subject somewhere on TB.
Our guitar/keyboard player toured with a major country name for 10+ years(ROAD band) while the studio guys did the CD's. That's how a lot of them work now.
@ OP:
Steppenwolf's bass was a major influence on me as well. In the 70's with a Gibson EB-OL and an Acoustic 370/301 was when FINALLY I could replicate a similar powerful sound/feel.
Was Carol Kaye talking about Jerry Scheff's bass work with the Doors? I didn't see her comments so I don't know the particulars.
As far as keyboards, drums and guitar, from everything I've read, the Doors did their own tracks, with the exception of bringing in people like Ry Cooder to do tracks on top of what was already there.
Kreiger, Densmore, Manzerak.....great, versatile and creative players. I can't imagine session players doing their studio tracks.
Anyway, for Jerry Scheff fans, here's a little solo he did with Elvis:
