Double Bass Stinkbomb post about modern neck construction methods

[mindwell]

I'm gearing up to make what probably will be the major upright bass purchase of my life as an aspiring amateur / occasional paid gig upright bassist, and am zeroing in on a 5/8-size carved or hybrid. How should I understand what I'm seeing in this video about the metal reinforcement rod that appears to be built into the neck on this bass? Is it as objectionable as the folks who posted the video find it to be? Does it come as a surprise to the members who post on this forum or is it common or semi-common knowledge?

 

[Sam Sherry]

I'm not a luthier and as noted below I'm not an unbiased poster.
But I have been a gearhead for a long time and I've owned my full share of DBs.

What I take from that vid is this:

a) People have been building violin-family instruments successfully without neck reinforcement for centuries. Empirically this reflects that metal neck reinforcement is not a requirement for a successful DB build.

b) If there was something defective about that particular neck which required reinforcement, centuries of luthiers would have simply scrapped the defective neck instead of inserting a metal bar. Somebody, somewhere, sometime didn't do that to this bass.

c) DB construction techniques continue to evolve. The Uptons (among many others) utilize modern techniques in their builds. But they don't hide them -- they celebrate them.

d) Screwing a metal bar into a neck and then covering it seems to me to be a suspect technique. Lots of screws loosen. Loose parts rattle. Hidden loose parts make hidden rattles. Hidden rattles suck because they usually take extra, un-budgeted work to identify and correct.

e) "Like the 13th chime of the clock, this calls into question the validity of all that came before." Phrased otherwise, 'What else are they hiding?'


DISCLAIMER: I am proud to represent Upton Bass String Instrument Corp. as its attorney. This is not a post made by a neutral poster. Anyone who thinks this post contains legal advice is profoundly mistaken.

 

[damonsmith]

I don't think that is the way to do it. I had a neck repair several years ago and they put carbon fiber rods under the fingerboard and I believe through the heel to reinforce it.
Carbon fiber neck reinforcement - Double Bass Workshop

Here is an old thread on here about them:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/carbon-fibre-neck-stiffening-rods-db-forum-thread.1025232/

 

[RSBBass]

I have no problem with reinforcing a neck. Carbon Fiber is the preferred material among the people I know who do this kind of work. Properly fit, there is no reason to use screws when installing a reinforcing bar.
I would not buy a bass knowing it had been assembled or repaired this way.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

In my ten plus years working with student to intermediate basses (many Chinese) I have come to prefer this to warped, bowed and twisted necks. Show me a five year old student level bass in any public school and I'll bet the neck has bowed a few millimeters. Usually when a teacher asks me to lower a bridge, the neck is at fault.

Chinese basses often use soft neck wood and the fingerboards are barely glued on which leads to problems.
If the object of the derision is a Shen, as it appears, I can only say they sound good and don't generally have issues.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I don't think that is the way to do it. I had a neck repair several years ago and they put carbon fiber rods under the fingerboard and I believe through the heel to reinforce it.
Carbon fiber neck reinforcement - Double Bass Workshop

Here is an old thread on here about them:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/carbon-fibre-neck-stiffening-rods-db-forum-thread.1025232/

The issue isn't whether an aluminum reinforcement is better than a carbon fiber rod which has been properly fitted by a luthier here in the US, but whether aluminum is better than nothing in a bass made in a Chinese factory. I've had dozens of these basses though my shop and only had one very minor fingerboard issue. It works.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

More info needed. In that post it's deliberately unclear if that's a repair or a factory choice.

If it's the former, then it's disingenuous not to state that outright. He shows the Shen logo intentionally at the start of the video. If it's the latter, what year was it made and how prevalent is it among the various Shen models?

I've never owned a Shen or an Upton, btw.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

More info needed. In that post it's deliberately unclear if that's a repair or a factory choice.

If it's the former, then it's disingenuous not to state that outright. He shows the Shen logo intentionally at the start of the video. If it's the latter, what year was it made and how prevalent is it among the various Shen models?

I've never owned a Shen or an Upton, btw.

Wow! I just watched the video. 'How will they know'? I proudly tell customers, that's how. I don't think anyone should spend $2-$6k on a bass and have the neck do the wet noodle down the road.

 

[Mark_T]

My bass was built with an stiffer wooden reinforcement rod (ipe, I think?) under the fingerboard. I had suggested CF but the luthier proposed using wood. His thinking was that CF would be too unyielding and not let the neck undergo natural flex. I thought it made sense and so that's what we did.

The repair the Upton folks exposed there is, how we say, "very bad". I'm sure Shen wouldn't have done that, it must have been a backalley bondo job.

 

[james condino]

That looks like an old U channel aluminum section, common among Martin guitars from the 1970s & '80s that would have boxed in an adjustable truss rod; likely a guitar repair person trying to do their best to problem solve some bass issues. The reason is obvious- 3' of aluminum channel costs about $3. Carbon fiber would cost somewhere between $50-150, depending upon your selection. Anyone who builds or installs truss rods know that they work best if they are set deep into the beck of the neck below the neutral axis, hence adding some wood on top if it to fill the obvious channel.


A big thing to remember is that most repair techs are not jedi masters. They are human and have faults and may not be experts at everything. They try to do their best to help customers get through their daily issues, not always succeeding. I also often find that people who buy lower end basses tend to not just have economic issues, but they often tend to be bottom feeders in their entire approaches to life, so they want bottom priced repairs and select bottom price individuals.

As I say about 3-4 times a week, "Well....I'm not the one who broke the F#@!%^& neck. The solution is obvious- you need a new neck that will cost a lot of time and money. If you want a compromise solution, be nice and stop being an @$$#&%*!

The more standout question to me about this particular incident is what is going on with the whole neck such that a relatively new bass has had the fingerboard removed TWICE by two different shops. Could this also be straight from the factory in an attempt to add some stiffening? Factories are notorious for counting pennies with production costs because you and I may think $50 in carbon fiber vs $3 in aluminum, but the factory managers think $50,000 for a years worth of carbon fiber. On a good year I use almost $500, so even at my scale I pay attention to pricing; hence I rarely use the $125 carbon U channel when I can get the job done with $25 in straight beams.

One last comment on hardware in necks: There are a LOT of people who put up a stink about any form of metal / hardware / additions inside necks beyond just wood. Why is it I've never heard a single one of them mention or complain about Stradivari and the Cremona masters using nails to help secure their necks? Three of the Stradivarious violins I have handled had rusty old nails going through the heel block into the neck and nobody ever accuses him of being a dip$#it amateur hack.....

 

[John Sprague]

I'm not a luthier and as noted below I'm not an unbiased poster.

Precisely.

When we first saw this FB post, we had a good laugh thinking that the poster actually sat up rubbing his hands together adding background audio and so on to make this video. Who does business like this?

So here's the answer that the video deserves, hopefully our friends at TB allow me a fair reply.

Reinforcing necks is done by many, and perhaps the majority, of makers today, including the top dollar makers. Most use carbon fiber rods, we choose not to. The choice has to do with the fact that our basses are heavily used, in every locale from schools to universities to clubs to symphony hall. They fall over, and players brake necks off on everything from cab doors, stage floors, and everywhere else. Children drag them down hallways by their scrolls, you know they do. When the neck gets blasted, the channel is easily removed/reversed during repair, and since it conducts heat it even facilitates an easier fingerboard removal. An epoxied CF rod is brutal to remove during a repair, if you've had to dig one out of a neck you know just what I mean. The most important thing is that our method has been incredibly successful, and recommend it to any maker looking for reversible reinforcement and reduced neck movement.

Now back to that video, for a teachable moment, and all truth. That is a Shen SB150 3/4 hybrid bass, one of our flagship products. Had the poster thought in more positive terms about why we sell so many, he could have learned two things just from the picture that might actually help him improve his business:
1. This is how an oil varnish should look.
2. Hybrid bass means carved tops, not pressed planks.
Nothing but the truth.

Best,
John
Proudly Sam Shen's US Distributor.

 

[mindwell]

My initial request was for some eyes to help me understand what I was seeing and I was not disappointed. This is a terrific set of replies all around that simply could not be better stated or more on point. The basses I have been considering will remain on my radar. Thank you all very much.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

 

[John Sprague]

My bass was built with an stiffer wooden reinforcement rod (ipe, I think?) under the fingerboard. I had suggested CF but the luthier proposed using wood. His thinking was that CF would be too unyielding and not let the neck undergo natural flex. I thought it made sense and so that's what we did.

The repair the Upton folks exposed there is, how we say, "very bad". I'm sure Shen wouldn't have done that, it must have been a backalley bondo job.

Though I disagree with your second point, we agree with your first point that using a harder wood, or even maple with a different grain angle can yield good results by offering a counter force to the bends. Our first iteration was a wide open channel, the next was filled with wood as yours is, and the last being an extrusion which doesn't. freakin'. move. It's been a great solution for us.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

The joinery of that filler piece seems pretty sloppy for a flagship bass.

Is it soft wood? I suppose that would contribute to the swelling problem.

 

[JBarz]

I generally like Upton and Shen, but IMHO, Upton's video above is pretty tacky. It watches like a smear campaign against a political adversary. But then again, it's par for the course for where it's posted: facebook/instagram bring out the worst in people (and businesses!). Trash-talking content generation aimed exclusively at promoting engagement. … and here we are talking about it. Boo, Upton. BTW, +1 for John @ CSC for always bringing nothing but class in his responses.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

It's getting harder to source high quality wood in quantity, and Chinese maple is known for being soft and bendy. There are millions of guitars with truss rods and nobody bats an eye. I fail to see the problem with a steel-reinforced bass neck if it improves performance.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

In my experience, neck stiffness is a major factor in the tone and sustain of basses. Since guitars have been introduced into this discussion, I'm reminded that Warmoth electric bass necks use steel reinforcing bars (I believe)in addition to a truss rod. When USA Custom Guitars was in business, they used graphite bars and claimed a similar benefit and the added benefit of reduced weight. I still have a J neck on a Fender parts bass and it is a great sounding axe with a very slim profile on the neck. I haven't touched the truss rod in over a decade.
Every Shen I've experienced has had good sustain and a solid E string. Trusting that the necks won't bow or twist makes them a good value in the long run.

 

[uprightbass.com]

I generally like Upton and Shen, but IMHO, Upton's video above is pretty tacky.

While it might bring down my opinion of Shen's product, it certainly brought down my perception of Upton far more than that. With the added insight from CSC it didn't change Shen as one of my recommendations as a starter/school bass. Now all the video did was bring down my opinion of Upton.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm reminded that Warmoth electric bass necks use steel reinforcing bars (I believe)in addition to a truss rod.

True. My DIY J-bass, sports a 1993 Warmoth neck (their "Real Big 5", no longer in production), contains 2 steel reinforcement bars and has 2 Truss Rods!
It sounds awesome and weighs 11lbs., which scares away most Snowflake Slab enthusiasts.