Double Bass Stinkbomb post about modern neck construction methods

[turf3]

Now I'm going to have to shop online for some Pernicious Aircraft Contact Adhesive.

Yossarian sidled up drunkenly to Colonel Korn at the officers' club one night to kid with him about the new Lepage gun that the Germans had moved in.

"What Lepage gun?" Colonel Korn inquired with curiosity.

"The new three-hundred-and-forty-four-millimeter Lepage glue gun," Yossarian answered. "It glues a whole formation of planes together in mid-air."

Colonel Korn jerked his elbow free from Yossarian's clutching fingers in startled affront. "Let go of me, you idiot!" he cried out furiously, glaring with vindictive approval as Nately leaped upon Yossarian's back and pulled him away. "Who is that lunatic, anyway?"

Colonel Cathcart chortled merrily. "That's the man you made me give a medal to after Ferrara. You had me promote him to captain, too, remember? It serves you right."

Nately was lighter than Yossarian and had great difficulty maneuvering Yossarian's lurching bulk across the room to an unoccupied table. "Are you crazy?" Nately kept hissing with trepidation. "That was Colonel Korn. Are you crazy?"

Yossarian wanted another drink and promised to leave quietly if Nately brought him one. Then he made Nately bring him two more. When Nately finally coaxed him to the door, Captain Black came stomping in from outside, banging his sloshing shoes down hard on the wood floor and spilling water from his eaves like a high roof.

"Boy, are you bastards in for it!" he announced exuberantly, splashing away from the puddle forming at his feet. "I just got a call from Colonel Korn. Do you know what they've got waiting for you at Bologna? Ha! Ha! They've got the new Lepage glue gun. It glues a whole formation of planes together right in mid-air."

"My God, it's true!" Yossarian shrieked, and collapsed against Nately in terror.

 

[Don Hergert]

Hmmm. I'd scratch my aging bald head, but my hand has got Pernicious Aircraft Contact Adhesive all over it.

 

[Matthijs]

Just a general reminder to all to post respectfully even when you disagree with another poster. Reasoned arguments and discussion are allowed, but when directed at other TB/DB members, insults and disrespect are not.

This is a tough line to walk because of the singular nature of this thread. The video in the OP, had it been posted by a member of the company to which it is attributed, would not have been allowed as it appears to be a direct negative comment on the practices of a competitor when both companies are represented by actual members here on Talkbass. However, as the video appears to have been posted by a 3rd party in earnest and sparked an interesting discussion about modern bass making methods, it was allowed to remain in the interest of educational information, and the weigh ins by repairers and luthiers were crucial to this decision. A direct reply to the implied criticism in the video was allowed by the target organization out of fairness.

But beyond this, we are limited in what we can say here. It is fine to say "I do/don't believe that DB necks should be reinforced in this way and here's why...". It's also fine to say "I do/don't believe this sort of social media attack from one company toward another is a healthy thing and here's why...". But beyond these things, interactions between members need to remain respectful on Talkbass even if they don't appear very respectful on social media outside of Talkbass.

The moderators and admins here can't control what people do elsewhere; we can only moderate and mitigate what happens here on our little slice of the internet. Beyond that, in order to stay within the bounds of our site owner's vision of how the site should be run, namely:

"All registered users must address fellow members with the utmost respect at all times. If you do not agree with a fellow member, be courteous in your response. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine".

Because of the limitations of text-based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky. One of the most common triggers of rule violations is the misinterpretation of intent behind a post. Use smilies often, and remember, it never hurts to begin a response with "In my opinion"..."

We should strive to take the high road whenever given the chance, and hope that the reader will see what is happening for themselves and make up their own minds.

We have had several reports about this thread. So far, the moderator consensus is that the Talkbass membership has largely behaved and stayed in bounds given the inflammatory nature of the original post, but that moving forward, we need to rein it in a bit when it comes to interactions with other members of the site. To this end:

- it may well be that the reply that several members are hoping would be posted here could not be posted here because of our site rule against commenting negatively on the competition. In that case, we will have to understand and accept this fact.

- If that is the case and someone unaffiliated posts a link to the response on other social media, then membership here can only comment on their approval or disapproval of that response or the medium on which it was delivered in respectful terms. Please consider these points before hitting "send" as we move forward.

This kind of moderation is the reason I'm proud to be a member of TB and also why I ditched lots of other social media platforms over time. It is so good to see moderation that's not performed by an underpayed wage slave in a cubicle farm, following a flow chart drawn up by the marketing division. No, we get an adult explanation by a senior community member. And we even get some adult leaway.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

Precisely.
Now back to that video, for a teachable moment, and all truth. That is a Shen SB150 3/4 hybrid bass, one of our flagship products. Had the poster thought in more positive terms about why we sell so many, he could have learned two things just from the picture that might actually help him improve his business:
1. This is how an oil varnish should look.
2. Hybrid bass means carved tops, not pressed planks.
Nothing but the truth.

Best,
John
Proudly Sam Shen's US Distributor.

Would you elaborate on this? Gary posted a video that refutes what you have implied.

 

[turf3]

Would you elaborate on this? Gary posted a video that refutes what you have implied.

I guess I don't see the "refutation". Upton clearly claim they're carving their carved tops. I think pretty much every maker does that. There have been makers in the past that "pressed" (deformation under heat, steam, and pressure) solid thin wood into the domed shape. It seems this process is poorly regarded though I don't know why.

 

[turf3]

As a mechanical engineer, I can say that relying purely on the quality of the wood to resist bending under the forces in a double bass neck is always going to be a crapshoot. Steel-string guitars and electric basses use truss rods, and no one thinks anything bad about that, why is it so awful to use a reinforcement in a DB neck?

 

[mindwell]

As a mechanical engineer, I can say that relying purely on the quality of the wood to resist bending under the forces in a double bass neck is always going to be a crapshoot. Steel-string guitars and electric basses use truss rods, and no one thinks anything bad about that, why is it so awful to use a reinforcement in a DB neck?

This is kind of where I am now, and why I asked the original question. I came into this knowing that while traditional construction methods still largely prevail in double bass lutherie (hide glue vs epoxy, repairs need to be reversible, etc), it is 2023, and materials science and physics have come a long way. I initially was aghast at seeing the metal rod embedded in the neck wood, but I have to say that for me, function now seems to outweigh the objections about form. And it's funny: I visited my local luthier a few days before posting, and he complained about a neck failure on a new upper-mid price point carved bass from a different major builder. If I buy a new carved upright bass and the neck goes kaput a few months after purchase, that is a HUGE problem. Rather than see the truss rod as "cheating" or as a way to fudge and skimp, it frankly seems like a good piece of insurance.

 

[JBarz]

Sorry (as always) for maybe over-posting/sharing, but I agree 100%. I've been coincidentally spending all my free time recently setting up, tweaking, and breaking in this new Shen 5'r since this thread started, and this video has been on my mind. (Issues of social tact and stuff can get stuck under my skin - I'm convinced it's a weird undiagnosed autism thing. Anyway…). You can easily see the routed channel for the brace ("rebar", lol - I'm still chuckling about that…) inside the pegbox and under the overstand and it brings me nothing but comfort knowing not only will the setup be super stable (the fingerboard came perfectly planed from the factory, btw - incredible!), but also that it can take much more abuse than I'll (hopefully) ever be dishing out.

But in regards to the original video and instagram post, though - I wish I had never seen it. I still find it incredibly obnoxious and disappointing because I have here-to-fore held Upton in the highest regard. Their removable neck system is incredible (!) and I had every intention of buying one eventually. I wish the Upton guy had just said "listen, ya'll, that wasn't our best social media moment, our bad" or any sort of apology instead of just doubling down on the propaganda (wink wink), but I don't play an Upton snd really don't have a horse in that race.

 

[jmpiwonka]

This gives a little more insight into why upton was tearing the neck apart.

i think they atleast don't namecall the maker this time.

UptonBass String Instrument Co on Instagram

 

[Eli Brockway]

And it's funny: I visited my local luthier a few days before posting, and he complained about a neck failure on a new upper-mid price point carved bass from a different major builder.

Was it our fun Englishman on George Washington? He doesn't really like working on basses to begin with, so I can imagine "he complained" is an understatement.

This gives a little more insight into why upton was tearing the neck apart.

i think they atleast don't namecall the maker this time.

UptonBass String Instrument Co on Instagram

I also appreciate that in there he mentions that makers he respects will inlay something to stiffen the neck, just that he personally doesn't like it.

 

[Aragorn35016]

I could be wrong, but I'd like to point out that the original video is from March 2022, the above video is from 22 hours ago, so I'm not sure this is the same instrument in question.

This leads to some observational questions on my part, there's been enough character questioning thrown around in this thread, so I'm going to try to ask as these things as lightly as I can, and in the purist logical way that I can muster.

Again I don't know anyone in this thread personally so I default to all motives being pure in their intent. I have talked to Gary personally and think he's a pretty standup dude, and he is making me a bass (more on that when it gets here).

If that video is from 2022, how much effort did that take to find on instagram? I think the question about construction methodology was ok, but was I digging for it and posting it worth all the banter in this thread?

If said video is from 2022 and this video is from yesterday, I have to assume that these are two totally different instruments, with problems related to that channel, and whatever is underneath. If this has happened twice, and witnessing what it takes to repair the issue, I question what the value add is to the owner if his neck has to be ripped apart to do a repair? I think I know what the value add is to the manufacturer, which is some cost savings on the wood quality used, which I'm actually ok with, granted that these process indicators are the exception and not the norm.

Again I'm vastly becoming my parents, with my adeptness at social media technology, so I apologize if I have the timeline of events wrong.

 

[Eli Brockway]

I don't think anybody in here was assuming that those two videos have the same instrument, a year and a half apart.

 

[GretschWretch]

Again I'm vastly becoming my parents, with my adeptness at social media technology, so I apologize if I have the timeline of events wrong.

At least you are not being tutored by some washed-up pop psychologist on television commercials.

 

[Aragorn35016]

At least you are not being tutored by some washed-up pop psychologist on television commercials.

this is true!

 

[mindwell]

Was it our fun Englishman on George Washington? He doesn't really like working on basses to begin with, so I can imagine "he complained" is an understatement.

Indeed it was! But I don't think the two sentences or so of complaining was inordinate given the situation being described.

 

[mindwell]

If that video is from 2022, how much effort did that take to find on instagram? I think the question about construction methodology was ok, but was I digging for it and posting it worth all the banter in this thread?

I believe these questions are directed to me and I would like to answer them.

I saw the video when it was first posted last year as I follow Upton and have coveted and will go on coveting many of the basses they build and showcase. Maybe I'll even buy one someday, and that would be a most happy day. The video has stuck in my mind since then and I found it in less than five minutes on their Instagram "reels" tab.

To answer your other question, we are all adults here and are responsible for our own words and responses. Nobody is forced to respond, and nobody is responsible for what anyone else chooses to post. Having been on Talkbass since 2006, I think this has been among the very most enlightening threads I've seen, and I am very grateful to the mods for their light yet firm hand in allowing the discussion to continue. Were a couple of low blows thrown? Possibly, though if they were, they boomeranged on their throwers rather than doing much if anything to their intended targets. Have representatives of many of the very most significant players in the builder (Shen, Upton) and luthier/repair (James Condino, Greg Clinkingbeard, KUNGfuSHERIFF) communities weighed in with meritorious arguments for all manner of views about neck construction and reinforcement? Yes, have they ever, and their willingness to be candid and to share their experience is gold. Everything is out in the open and the arguments for different approaches have been elaborated. I know much more than I did and I suspect this is true for others as well.

I have zero regrets about posting my question and could not be more grateful for those who brought their best selves to answering it. I have a settlement check for a few thousand dollars waiting to be cashed when the right bass shows up, and when it does I'll be able to make a better-informed judgment than I could have before.

 

[Eli Brockway]

Indeed it was! But I don't think the two sentences or so of complaining was inordinate given the situation being described.

Not at all, I'm just more surprised he even had one in the shop.

Anyways, when you're looking for a bass, make sure to head up to KC. Obviously there's KC Strings, but Greg's got some nice ones up there, including my former teacher's old Prescott, and he's the one who did the restoration on my old German bass. You can check out Beautiful Music Violin Shop in Lawrence on your way back too.

 

[Sam Sherry]

There have been makers in the past that "pressed" (deformation under heat, steam, and pressure) solid thin wood into the domed shape. It seems this process is poorly regarded though I don't know why.

I can speak to that without referring to any particular builder.

The art and craft of luthiery is about luthiers using their skill and experience to personally adjust individual tops to best achieve those individual tops unique potential. Pressing tops is abandoning all that to go for the average. Sometimes, through chance, the average is the ideal shape for a particular piece of wood. All the rest of the time it isn't.

As a mechanical engineer, I can say that relying purely on the quality of the wood to resist bending under the forces in a double bass neck is always going to be a crapshoot. Steel-string guitars and electric basses use truss rods, and no one thinks anything bad about that, why is it so awful to use a reinforcement in a DB neck?

Again, without regard to any particular builder: There are so many differences between how steel-string guitars and violin-family instruments are designed and built that there is almost no carry-over between them on the bench. It's similar in degree to the differences between cars and bicycles.

I don't have a beef with anybody building any instrument any way they feel like. I don't have any beef with anybody buying a bass which they are told has a reinforced neck.

I have a beef when somebody tells me they are doing xxx to work on my bass and I find out later that they did yyy technique instead. Here's what happened to me once: Somebody told me they would be using hide glue for a full restoration and I found out they used giant gobs of epoxy. I chose them to run hide glue. I was quoted for hide glue. I paid for hide glue. Five years later I was paying somebody else for a re-restoration (because Mr. Epoxy's work didn't hold up) and I had to pay the new guy to remove a canoe's-worth of epoxy.

Surprises on instruments suck. It doesn't matter who, it doesn't matter what: They always suck.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I wasn't aware of any pressed "carved" tops on DBs, but aren't all ply tops pressed? There just doesn't seem to be any other way to do that.

 

[GretschWretch]

I wasn't aware of any pressed "carved" tops on DBs, but aren't all ply tops pressed? There just doesn't seem to be any other way to do that.

Years ago, in an issue of the journal Early Music, there was an article about violin/viol tops being bent as well as carved. The carving was done in the manner we have come to expect, but in addition, said tops were bent as they approached the neck and tail blocks. This was deduced from the way the wood grain veered toward the center in these areas.