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Stop Tuning Your Bass With Harmonics - Thought This Might Be Interesting

Hugh_R

Hugh_R

Sep 9, 2008
69
52
London, UK
onlinebassguitar.com
#1
Hey,

So a while ago I found out that tuning your bass with harmonics is a bad idea and I just wanted to see if anyone else has found the same things I did.

So years ago I would use the trick of playing the 5th fret harmonic on one string and the 7th fret on the string above. I would get them to match but my bass still didn't quite sound right so I thought it was maybe the intonation etc. But, even after a set up I still had the same issues so I did some research and found out that it's actually a bad idea to do this because of the physics.

I found out that the 5th fret harmonic on the A string is 220hz. So, this means that the 7th fret on the D string would have to also be 220hz for me to be able to tune correctly. But actually it's 219.6hz (when the bass is perfectly in tune) so they don't actually match. And if you make them match then the open strings are fractionally out of tune and, by extension, if you go through the whole bass this way it gets progressively worse tuning wise.

Has anyone else found this out? Thought it might be a cool thing to share!
 
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#2
Hugh_R said:
5th fret harmonic on the A string is 220hz
Click to expand...

Impossible, unless your bass is tuned to several octaves too low.
It would be the A 2 octaves above the open A 440 string, 1760 hz.
Correct your measurements and get back to us.

ugh I made a stupid mistake, please ignore that.

Or consider this:
The method of tuning by ear & harmonics, and the conventionally acceptable differences
between 'true' and 'even tempered' frequencies are centuries old.
how likely do you really think it is you have discovered some long hidden flaw?
 
Last edited:
#3
mambo4 said:
Impossible, unless your bass is tuned to several octaves too low.
It would be the A 2 octaves above the open A 440 string, 1760 hz.
Correct your measurements and get back to us.

Or consider this:
The method of tuning by ear & harmonics, and the conventionally acceptable differences
between 'true' and 'even tempered' frequencies are centuries old.
how likely do you really think it is you have discovered some long hidden flaw?
Click to expand...

It's not long hidden at all! It's just not that well known about. I found a few other sources that also support this view point. Take a look!



And this article and Link Removed
 
#5
i'm so crazy i tune my bass using fretted notes because just fretting a note pulls it slightly out of tune. So, even when the bass is set up, tuned, and intonated in the normally accepted fashion, fretted notes still sound slightly out of tune to me.

of course, tuning for fretted notes leaves the open notes slightly out of tune. and fretted instruments don't intonate quite exactly anyway. it's enough to make one play a fretless!
 
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#7
Yup, this all comes down to the wacky world of temperaments. You'll never get a fretted string instrument (or most acoustic instruments in general) perfectly in tune in all keys simultaneously, because the universe is a silly, silly place, what with its math and physics and stuff.

With that said, 12-TET is pretty damn close and good for most purposes, so tune as close as you can... and then work on your technique! :laugh:
 
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#10
Depends who I am playing with...

If I am playing with a piano/keyboard then I tune the open strings to the piano's EADG.

If I am playing with electric guitars, I tune my open strings to their open strings.

If I am playing with an acoustic guitarist, I tune my fretted low G to their open G chord.

Anyway if you can hear the difference between 220hz and 219.6hz then power to you! :)
 
#13
Hugh_R said:
Has anyone else found this out? Thought it might be a cool thing to share!
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. I've always felt that tuning my bass with harmonics produces some "strange tuning issues", but I blamed my bass fretboard for it - maybe some "warping" or something similar.

Thanks again.
I just have a question.
If the Bass Open D note = 73.42Hz (D2) than, 73.42Hz x 3 = 220.26 not 219.6 as you wrote.
("When you play a 7th-fret harmonic, it produces a
frequency exactly three times higher than the open string note.")

It's from here:
Why Tuning With Harmonics Doesn't Work - Larry P. Schrof

"...Next, we need a list of the frequencies that a perfectly tuned set of
guitar strings will produce. Assuming equal temperament using
A-440, we get:

Open Note Frequency
--------------------
Low E: 82.41
A 110.00
D 146.83
G 196.00
B 246.94
E 329.62

Using this information, you can now determine the frequencies produced
by the 5th and 7th-fret harmonics on every string. For example, since
the A string rings open at 110 Hz, its 7th-fret harmonic will be at
330 Hz, and its 5th-fret harmonic will be at 440 Hz.

OK. Now that the groundwork is laid, let's see why tuning with
harmonics doesn't work. We'll walk through an example. Assume that
your low E and A strings are in perfect tune, but you want to
double-check them. According to the chart above, your low E string will
produce a tone at 82.41 Hz. Using the method you all know and love,
you'll pluck its 5th-fret harmonic. This gives an E two octaves
higher, at 329.64 Hz. Then, you pluck the 7th-fret A-string harmonic
and get a 330 Hz tone!"
 
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#14
Whousedtoplay said:
Thanks for sharing. I've always felt that tuning my bass with harmonics produces some "strange tuning issues", but I blamed my bass fretboard for it - maybe some "warping" or something similar.

Thanks again.
I just have a question.
If the Bass Open D note = 73.42Hz (D2) than, 73.42Hz x 3 = 220.26 not 219.6 as you wrote.
("When you play a 7th-fret harmonic, it produces a
frequency exactly three times higher than the open string note.")

It's from here:
Why Tuning With Harmonics Doesn't Work - Larry P. Schrof

"...Next, we need a list of the frequencies that a perfectly tuned set of
guitar strings will produce. Assuming equal temperament using
A-440, we get:

Open Note Frequency
--------------------
Low E: 82.41
A 110.00
D 146.83
G 196.00
B 246.94
E 329.62

Using this information, you can now determine the frequencies produced
by the 5th and 7th-fret harmonics on every string. For example, since
the A string rings open at 110 Hz, its 7th-fret harmonic will be at
330 Hz, and its 5th-fret harmonic will be at 440 Hz.

OK. Now that the groundwork is laid, let's see why tuning with
harmonics doesn't work. We'll walk through an example. Assume that
your low E and A strings are in perfect tune, but you want to
double-check them. According to the chart above, your low E string will
produce a tone at 82.41 Hz. Using the method you all know and love,
you'll pluck its 5th-fret harmonic. This gives an E two octaves
higher, at 329.64 Hz. Then, you pluck the 7th-fret A-string harmonic
and get a 330 Hz tone!"
Click to expand...

The open D string is 73.2HZ not 73.42HZ. Did I make a typo somewhere with that? 73.2 x 3 is indeed 219.6. Sorry for the confusion on my part!
 
#15
Well a fretted instrument will have to make some sacrifice in order to be in "tune". I'm pretty sure your octave and 5th are all prefectly in tune with the open string so the harmonic are also in tune.

Tuning with the harmonics is a very old technique that works very well and it is still used today especially by classical musicians, it also have the benefit of training your ears.

Also the harmonic at the 5th fret of D string is the same note as the harmonic at the 7th fret G string ... so they need to match
 
Last edited:
#16
2011-11-20_222102.jpg
Whousedtoplay said:
Open Note Frequency
--------------------
Low E: 82.41
A 110.00
D 146.83
G 196.00
B 246.94
E 329.62
Click to expand...

But, aren't those doubled?

Here's a chart I saved from somewhere:
2011-11-20_222102.jpg
 
Last edited:
#17
Hugh_R said:
The open D string is 73.2HZ not 73.42HZ. Did I make a typo somewhere with that? 73.2 x 3 is indeed 219.6. Sorry for the confusion on my part!
Click to expand...

I don't want to start arguing about that Open D2 note, but here are the links:

Note Frequencies
OpenDHZ.PNG


Link Removed

OpenDHz-2PNG.PNG

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

OpenDHz-3PNG.PNG


Guitar 101 – Standard tuning, chromatic scales, sequence of notes, fretboard | Help you be a better musician
OpenDHz-4PNG.PNG



The Tour Book, Second Edition: How to Get Your Music on the Road - Andy Reynolds - Google Books
OpenDHz-5PNG.PNG

Alternative Rock - By Wikipedians - Google Books
OpenDHz-6PNG.PNG

http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse477/00sp/projectwebs/groupf/midiNotes.html
OpenDHz-7PNG.PNG


SHOULD I CONTINUE???
 
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#18
What a vain debate.
Use whatever method you want, you can only ever be so much in tune. It changes absolutely nothing in real life application.
Not even the most perfectly pitched ears can hear differences that small, less than a comma.
Besides, as soon as you start fretting notes you get differences as bad as 5%. So much for 0.02% perfect tuners.
 
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#19
Whousedtoplay said:
I don't want to start arguing about that Open D2 note, but here are the links:

Note Frequencies
View attachment 623854

Link Removed

View attachment 623856
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

View attachment 623857

Guitar 101 – Standard tuning, chromatic scales, sequence of notes, fretboard | Help you be a better musician
View attachment 623858


The Tour Book, Second Edition: How to Get Your Music on the Road - Andy Reynolds - Google Books
View attachment 623859
Alternative Rock - By Wikipedians - Google Books
View attachment 623860
http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse477/00sp/projectwebs/groupf/midiNotes.html
View attachment 623861

SHOULD I CONTINUE???
Click to expand...

My apologies I must've picked up some bad information somewhere! In any case I guess what you've found further supports the point so thanks for updating me on a few facts!
 
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#20
Jazz Ad said:
What a vain debate.
Use whatever method you want, you can only ever be so much in tune. It changes absolutely nothing in real life application.
Click to expand...

We, as HUMANS, ALWAYS have a lot of "VAIN" debates not only here, at TB, but EVERYWHERE.
Anyway, I tune my bass by listening to different Interval Vibrations (perfect 4th/5th, octave, augmented 9th, perfect 11th) between the strings - all strings.
Usually, I check for those interval vibrations around the 6th - 8th and 11th - 13th frets.
 

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