Double Bass Stopping Feedback in LOUD Settings

[Uncletoad]

I second that.

Mods ... Can you turn a single post into a sticky on the newbie page? He's done this before, and I imagine he's tired of typing it.

I copied the thing from the first time I wrote it. Took me a bit to find the damn thing though.

 

[pthorstenson]

Uncle Toad speakes truth.

I too play many of my gigs at high volume. I use a iamp 800 + 2 Aguliur 1x12's cranked. I use a full circle pu on a New Standard LaScala. The afterlength is my primary feedback trouble spot so I dampen that with a short length of rubber tube (1/2 inch dia) woven between the strings. The other key on a cramped stage is to not stand directly infront of your speakers which can be hard on a small stage. I had some luck with the phase reversal switch but it wasn't significant. We play clubs/bars in Asheville where there is no pa support. Our band is improv heavy jazz/groove and I don't like to place any restrictions on the drummers volume when hes "feelin the magic", so I try to make do. Lately, I have been trying to incorporate the feedback into my ideas.

Still, there comes a time when upright feels more like a visual prop than a vehical for musical expression at high volume.

 

[SlappinSimon]

The body of an acoustic bass is perfectly designed to generate feedback when amplified at high volume. Feedback eliminators can help, but the frequency they remove is usually crucial to the "acoustic" sound. The laws of physics are pretty hard to get around. A good EUB will ultimately sound better for what you're doing.

EUB IMO just look... I dont know, gimiky??, and they sound like a EB anyway, maybe a bit better, you can get the feel and swing of a double bass better, but the sound is not that much better.
I use an underwood, and these are great and you dont have to much problems. For what it is worth, I have always noticed that the players with all the gysmos attached between the bass and the amp have all the feed back troubles. I just go from my bass straight into my GK700RBII amp. unless I am facing the amp, I dont have a trouble. My bass is a very live bass also, I use it lots for fully accoustic gigs so it is the type of bass that you would expect to have feedback issues with.
I just think sometimes (if you can do it) less gear is better. Or maybe strip your rig right back to the bass and Amp to start with, and start adding gear as you go, maybe there is one thing that is triggering your feedback?

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I tour and play loud for a living. A properly used parametric will not remove the feedback note, just bring it under control. I use an Iamp800 and a 410 du jour. I often do use an EUB. The one I use is the Volante and most top bassists that hear and try it say that the feel and sound are virtually indistinguishable from the upright. On the road these days the only time I travel with the upright is for high profile gigs like Carnegie Hall or when I know I'll be recorded for a live cd.

 

[labravajazz]

Hi Michael - I appreciate your input on this topic. This may have been answered already but if so I haven't seen it. How did you come across the Volante and is it straightforward to buy one? Any leads would be great as googling doesn't turn much up.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I was playing in Paris and the designer/ business owner ( really nice guy) brought one in. I owned an Alter Ego at the time . This blew it away. Completely disassembles and fits into hard shell golf club case. Takes about 5 minutes to assemble. The Alter Ego took at least 20. Expensive, though. More than $4k I think. But traveling around the world without a huge trunk---priceless. My boss split the cost because she made up her half in the first year due to NO excess baggage charges. I think it sounds better than the Czech Ease. And the Czech Ease is technically oversize, this is not.
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[Matthew Tucker]

Man that's a wierd looking beast. So there's a sound post inside the box?? Can you use any DB pickup with it? What do you have?

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[audunramo]

I used to have the realist myself. It´s certainly not the pick-up you should use to play loud...

I guess it´s ok in common jazz settings, though...

 

[dar512]

I keep banging my Eminence on stuff. I'd have that Volante thing in kindling in no time.

And a plug for the Eminence - I've never gotten feedback from it.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey Matthew
The Volante has a sound post and a bass bar. I use the Full Circle. It comes with a Realist double-sticked to the top. I want to check out a pickup called the Aptflex. Similar to a Realist.This thing disassembles to fit in a hard shell golf club case. One cool feature is that the neck pivots and action height can be adjusted via an allen wrench on the back. I sometimes raise my action between tunes and re-tune quickly. If I'm digging in hard walking, action up. Legato soloing,action down. You can also optimize the angle of the strings over the bridge this way. The side wings fold in.

 

[Jeff Michael]

And of course there's the knee clamp.

Oh man, I play in a jump blues band that was way too LOUD when joined and I remember doing that dance all the time. Especially on stops: the band hits 'one', and Jeff starts groping around on the top for the sweet spot with his right hand while his left leg spasms up to choke the back of the bass...

I use an Underwood on my old American Standard, and a current bandmate who's been around the block says I have the best "loud upright" sound he's ever encountered. I have foam in the F holes and a foam block between the bridge feet, but my secret ingredient is foam in the overstand--the space between the back of the fingerboard and the top. I found there was a really lively spot back there, and a custom-shaped wedge of foam really helped a lot. Actually my super secret ingredient is the green racquetball between the foam and the fingerboard near the board's end. I'm sure it has nothing to do with tone, but it makes for an interesting couple of seconds on the few occasions it pops out and scampers across the stage. "Who the hell is throwing racquetballs at us?" I think, followed immediately by "oh, that's just me."

My advice is to get the bass to feed back (not on a job, ideally), try to find any particularly sensitive spots that make or break the howl, and stuff them if you can. Hmm, I wonder if a secretary bib would help at all.

Caveat: my idea of ideal bass tone, especially in that band, is a really muddy sludgey thump. So if you're EQ'ing for the usual woody, airy, articulated URB tone, my advice may be worth what you're paying for it. Less, even.

JAM

 

[moles]

Jeff,
That's even more good stuff. You and Toad should write a book together.
Seriously, I was actually thinking of trying the foam-under-the-overstand trick tomorrow night. Last gig I did with the guys I'll be playing with, I managed to get the feedback under control with eq, but wound up getting rid of way too much of the good, thumpy stuff in the process. Dang, for an "all acoustic" band - these guys turn up LOUD.
The other day, one of the sales reps at my day job handed me a little sponge stress-ball that we have made up for whatever reason. It went straight into my gig bag for under the tailpiece use. Haven't tried it yet, but it made me laugh that I'm now constantly scavenging any little piece of foam rubber I can get my paws on

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Foam is ok, but in my experience it changes the response and sound of the bass. Can you play louder amplified? You bet. But your bass sound is altered. That's one of the reasons that I don't like Underwoods. ( besides for the fact that I don't like their sound) The pressure on the bridge wings dramatically alters the sound.In my opinion, by the time you're done damping vibrations with foam, you've altered the sound enough that it ruins the sound.
As I said before, I tour and play LOUD onstage with Patricia Barber. 300 watts into a 4x 10 cab. Competing with a Strat into a Mesa Boogie and loud drums. But we also play very soft. If I used the foam, and especially wedging a tennis ball, my sound would be ruined. I used to bring a single rack space parametric along, but just picked up a Fishman Dual Parametric direct box on Ebay. Very small.
With the parametric you can isolate a nasty frequency and bring it down enough so that it doesn't feedback, but is balanced with the rest of the strings. I've never had more than two nasties, so the Fishman works great.

 

[Uncletoad]

Foam is ok, but in my experience it changes the response and sound of the bass. Can you play louder amplified? You bet. But your bass sound is altered. That's one of the reasons that I don't like Underwoods. ( besides for the fact that I don't like their sound) The pressure on the bridge wings dramatically alters the sound.In my opinion, by the time you're done damping vibrations with foam, you've altered the sound enough that it ruins the sound.
As I said before, I tour and play LOUD onstage with Patricia Barber. 300 watts into a 4x 10 cab. Competing with a Strat into a Mesa Boogie and loud drums. But we also play very soft. If I used the foam, and especially wedging a tennis ball, my sound would be ruined. I used to bring a single rack space parametric along, but just picked up a Fishman Dual Parametric direct box on Ebay. Very small.
With the parametric you can isolate a nasty frequency and bring it down enough so that it doesn't feedback, but is balanced with the rest of the strings. I've never had more than two nasties, so the Fishman works great.

I agree with this completely.

I don't use any of the dampening things when I play loud either anymore but I have in the past and they have worked. Yet, every time I dampen the TP or use an Underwood or the other wing pickups it has changed the DB sound profoundly so I've tried to work around it in other ways.

Surgical parametric is very good at dealing with this problem.

 

[moles]

I agree that all that dampening stuff ruins the sound of your bass. I don't want to do it - Heck, I don't even like anything on my afterlength - and for most of the people I play with I don't have to. They're either already astute enough to have their stage sound lowered, or willing to make some changes because they realize its for the better in the end....

But, I'm still going to run into situations like I did last weekend. The band won't turn down, the room sounds like arse, I'm expected to fill the room with my amp alone. Stuff like that. I also realized that, even though I can mute my top plate and stop the feedback between songs (and set a gate to take care of the creep), there was low volume moan under everything I was playing the other night that was sucking any punch and thud out of my tone anyway. It's like you can't hear the bass over itself when that happens. The deadened (Dead-End?) bass might be the lesser of two evils in that situation.
I've actually really got my fingers crossed that I just won't have to be as loud tomorrow, because I'd have a killer sound going otherwise.
....Maybe I'll be able to get away with something quiet like 300w into a 4X10...

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Yeah----They stopped making it, but the Fishman Dual Parametric is very cool. Weighs nothing, about the size of a floor pedal. The advantage of a parametric over notch filters is that you can find the offending frequency, get the notch as narrow as possible ( I'm talking no wider than the offending pitch) then bring it down into balance with the other notes. Can't even hear that it's there. Usually it's only one note. Then you can use the other band to take away some boom, or carefully pull out the mids perfectly centered on the correct frequency.
Just got a Micro 300. Weighs under 3 #. The Fishman weighs about a pound. So for under 4# I have a 300 watt amp with more EQ flexibilty than virtually any amp out there. Most amps have semi parametric eq which approaches uselessnes to me.
By the way, the Micro 300 kicks butt. Tried it on a gig where I usually use an Iamp800. Another loud gig. Slab and upright. Definitely at the end of its useful output, but it sounded great. I anticipated that it would be cool for the upright, but anemic on the Lakland. Not so. We were playing "Actual Proof" with a Strat and drums. Loud. The Micro sounded great. A top fusion electric player was in the audience. He was gassed. Ordered one the next day. Does the Micro sound as good as the Iamp800? Nope. But closer than one would think. This will be my touring amp.

 

[moles]

How about one of these?
http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=19
Odd shape that obviously won't fit in a rack, but you get 3 bands, and the bandwidth goes down to .1.
Hmm - I could probably sell the 32 band graphic for not much less than this would cost me......

 

[Uncletoad]

How about one of these?
http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=19
Odd shape that obviously won't fit in a rack, but you get 3 bands, and the bandwidth goes down to .1.
Hmm - I could probably sell the 32 band graphic for not much less than this would cost me......

Hard to know what it sounds like but the knobs look good.

Variable Q is the thing so you can make a notch filter with a really thin bandwidth.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

The Presonus is ok, but not as good as the Fishman. I mean, neither are high end, but the Fishman is better. If you want something REALLY good get a 1/2 rack space ASC eq. 2 bands of fully parametric and shelving bass and treble (variable frequency ). High end studio quality, semi high end price. (about $500 used) Another nice one that's also no longer made is a TC Electronics dual parametric pedal. ( usually about $300 on Ebay ) The only thing I didn't like was that band #2 only goes down to 100hz. Which is probably ok for most, but often I have to bring down the extreme low end on my bass (band one) and have to remove some feedback at about 85 hz. (band 2 )

 

[Uncletoad]

Another nice one that's also no longer made is a TC Electronics dual parametric pedal. ( usually about $300 on Ebay ) The only thing I didn't like was that band #2 only goes down to 100hz. Which is probably ok for most, but often I have to bring down the extreme low end on my bass (band one) and have to remove some feedback at about 85 hz. (band 2 )

That's where that High Pass filter is real nice. Tightens up the low end and leaves you parametric bands to work in the low mids and on up.