Double Bass Stopping Feedback in LOUD Settings

[DoubleMIDI]

It probably doesn't help that I'm really tall and there is a lot of end pin to freely vibrate. When I had a solid wood pin it was terrible for stage bounces.

A metal tube endpin with a larger diameter than most solid metal end pins might help, since tubes are harder to bend than solid rods. The larger diameter is needed for stability and also helps to reduce endpin vibration. But stage vibrations still go into the bass body this way, you just get rid of that endpin resonance.

You might want to experiment with different thickness and material under the cello disk for best results. Styrofoam might work too, but rubber foam helps to avoid slipping of the disk better. Try to avoid material that gets compressed after some time span of pressure.
And you can always sandwich the isolation material between the cello disk and a disk of rubber to avoid slipping.

 

[Ric Vice]

A metal tube endpin with a larger diameter than most solid metal end pins might help, since tubes are harder to bend than solid rods. The larger diameter is needed for stability and also helps to reduce endpin vibration. But stage vibrations still go into the bass body this way, you just get rid of that endpin resonance.

You might want to experiment with different thickness and material under the cello disk for best results. Styrofoam might work too, but rubber foam helps to avoid slipping of the disk better. Try to avoid material that gets compressed after some time span of pressure.
And you can always sandwich the isolation material between the cello disk and a disk of rubber to avoid slipping.

Actually, my Paul Tonnengies end pin is a solid aluminum rod with 1/2" diameter, it's very similar to the older
Goetz fully adjustable end pins. This structure does not bend at all. Seems to work very well, with no resonance at all.

Ric

 

[DB Slidefunk]

I'd choose isolation over a larger endpin as the problem is usually the kick drum and/or sub traps. By bass body seems to naturally resonate at around 100hz which is a common bass drum frequency.

 

[moles]

Not a physicist (and at this point I've got a couple in me ) but on the subject of different endpin constructions - I'd say the bigger issue is *transmission* off stage vibrations, rather than the vibrating of the actual endpin....

 

[matt holt]

Parametric eq. Playing live with Patricia Barber I have to play REAL loud sometimes. A notch filter is a parametric eq with variable "q" or the width of the eq'd frequencies. I'm an endorser for EA and they (finally) sent me a working Micro 300. This little puppy is the s*#t.
I played a LOUD gig and it was fabulous. I have a single rack space 5 band parametric that I love. But with the Micro, I wanted something smaller. So I just lucked out that on Ebay someone was selling a new Fishman Dual Parametric Direct Box/ Pedal. ( now discontinued--hard to find) I snatched it up. My bass, when pushed feeds back badly on the open (or closed) D. And the D is a lot louder than other notes. With the parametric, I can bring down the volume of the D and eliminate the feedback caused by it. And if I do it correctly, I can't tell a thing. Just that my instrument sounds even and doesn't feed back. Badda bing, badda boom----done.

This. I use a Sansamp para DI-it has a parametric midrange, and i have exactly the same problem with my D string. It will also take the piezo sound out of your pickup and give you a more natural sound IME, because it matches the piezo impedance to the amps input. I hate having to plug in my upright without it now-once you go Sansamp, you won't go back. Finally, the realists are going to be prone to feedback. I would go with an underwood, or a K&k (that's what all the rockabilly Guys seem to use) or even a (gasp) BP100.

Mike, it's good to see you're back, I've missed your posts

 

[Eilif]

So glad to have discovered this post. I see a few things I'm going to try.
However, I may have come up with a workable solution on my own.

Last night was my first go at a full set on the upright at my classic country/rock gig. Was getting serious feedback. My setup is an Englehardt with 4 transducer K&K bridge pup into K&K preamp, into an Ampeg Rocketbass. The venue was a medium sized bar, no stage, we carry our own micro PA.

I seem to have lost my rubber endpin cap so I didn't know whether it was floor coupling (though the amp is on casters) or the fact that I had to have the amp behind me so my drummer can hear me well (no monitors) or some combination of factors.

What I did do was grab a tall bar table, and set the Amp on it sideways. That put it almost at between chest and head level and feedback virtually disappeared.

I was able to stand just to the side of the front of the amp, and hear myself well (especially important as I'm a bit out of practice) the drummer loved it, even though it was facing him directly, the lead singer liked it (he's a bassist also) and the audience had no trouble hearing the bass. I'm not sure this will work everywhere, but I want to keep playing the first set of the night (more country and oldies, less of the pop which comes in later sets)on upright and at 95% of the places we play I should be able to requisition a tall bar table.

 

[Don Hergert]

I don't typically play crazy loud situations, but I have similarly experienced feedback with my amp. I have also found that having the amp elevated and behind me, pointing out to the audience and at my back is typically the best for both my piezo system and my mounted dynamic mic system. In that situation there is rarely feedback, the band can all hear, and so can the audience.

 

[Ric Vice]

..............I have also found that having the amp elevated and behind me, pointing out to the audience and at my back is typically the best for both my piezo system and my mounted dynamic mic system. In that situation there is rarely feedback, the band can all hear, and so can the audience.

It’s always a good strategy to raise the cabinet of the ground if you’re getting feedback or bass bloom. One issue with that is usually this lowers the bass response which drops significantly. Until Mike Arnopol built his first 4x5 cabinet, (which I have elevated closed to 5 feet off a stage floor) the low end loss was dramatic. Now my new MAS 1/8 has it’s own stand mount for just for elevation and little to no low end loss.

 

[seamonkey]

Get the amp up so it has more of a direct shot to your ear. You'll hear it better, and you won't have to turn up to the point of feedback.

It's an audio illusion that raising a cab looses bass. It's just that you hear the mids better when it's up closer to your ear. More mids sounds like less bass, but it isn't.

Then again some people hear mids and think it sounds more bassy, if the harmonics are there then the missing fundamental kicks in and some hear the bass.

 

[Jazzdogg]

It’s always a good strategy to raise the cabinet of the ground if you’re getting feedback or bass bloom. One issue with that is usually this lowers the bass response which drops significantly. Until Mike Arnopol built his first 4x5 cabinet, (which I have elevated closed to 5 feet off a stage floor) the low end loss was dramatic. Now my new MAS 1/8 has it’s own stand mount for just for elevation and little to no low end loss.

Ric, if you are in cahoots with Mike Arnopol to pry open my wallet for more of his custom cabinets, I should let you know that my primary concerns since retirement are travel and grandchildren.
On a serious note, I miss talking to y'all, and have absolutely no doubt that Mike's bass gear continues to be world class. I'm a little jealous of those of you who are gigging and using his new stuff.
Best,
Jazzdogg

 

[Ric Vice]

Jazz Dog.
I’m fortunate to have played gigs the last couple of years allowing me to save the funds for the MAS cabinets, I’m lucky enough to own. I also sold off all my other gear to help pay for them. Grandchildren and travel should trump everything else. You have the right perspective. In the not to distant future I’ll sell off all the gear I don’t need.

 

[bass183]

Hey Everybody
I just played my first gig in a Loud electronic dance music jam band type setting. (With and upright?, I know). I am running my bass through a realist into a electro harmonix looper into a mixing amp which goes to the house pa. Due to the type of music it was scream at friend to talk loud. My upright feedback sooo bad I couldn't use it. If I turned up the gain enough on the looper to be heard in the mix i would instantly get bawwoooo feedback that I couldn't even mute with my hand on the strings. So I had to play BG all night.
What can I do?
I was thinking underwood pickup into a fishman EQ-pro bass?
I know it is possible to do this, Chris Wood plays really loud with mmw.

The only solution other than using a EUB is to have the sound engineer turn off the subwoofers when you play the acoustic bass. That is problematic with that style of music since it is so reliant on those low end subs. You could also try to get the band onstage to cut the stage volume by a significant margin to allow your bass to sound good w/o feedback. Are you using a HPF? That will also help cut some of the low end hum, but if those subs are up, you'll still be fighting feedback issues even if the stage volume is down. That's been my experience in similar settings.

 

[Sam Reese]

If there is no PA and you are trying to get your rig as loud as you can put it in front of you pointing out at the crowd. You'll hear it just fine and it won't feed back near as much as if it's behind you or beside you.

This is brilliant advice! Thank you @Uncletoad

 

[seamonkey]

The low bass radiates 360 from the cab.
Low bass is going to feedback if you’re in front or behind.
Quality sound engineers will set up cardioid sub woofer pattern to keep low bass from flooding the stage.
When they ring out the stage for the pre-band sound check, leave your bass on stage and have them ring it out too.

 

[Rene Hart]

My 2¢ from extensive experience playing upright in large venues, arenas, yada yada,
It's all about the phase and playing in tune (google "Dennis Irwin, the best bass amp")
- Get a tight pickup. Full Circle, or Gage Life Line, etc.
- Get a preamp with a polarity switch and notch filter, like a Fishman.
- Get the Westone Ambient IEMs. They let audio through like earplugs (which you should be using for this lol)

at Soundcheck:
- Have them mute the bass in your monitor and FOH.
- Adjust the polarity of your preamp so the bass and the amp are in phase (google this deep rabbit hole. It takes experience, a basic method is to have goal of strings not vibrating when you let go of them)
- Use a little compression.
- Use the low end notch if needed.
- Then ask FOH to turn you up and to adjust the polarity of your signal in the mains to be in phase with the bass and amp.
- Send just enough bass to the IEMs from your own preamp rig or an extra mic on the bass so you can play in tune.
- Turn the bass amp way down, or off. If someone needs the bass amp, point it at them and roll off the lows. The house rig will already have to much low end, don't add to it.
- Keep the bass away from all speakers, it's a huge low end microphone prone to feedback.
- Chill, play in tune, control your sound, and slay.

Hope this helps somebody
Rene