Strings Breaking... At the tuning pegs

[bassdude51]

JRA gave some excellent advice.

i don't cut my strings, not for that reason, but i'd imagine that winding the whole end would help to eliminate/reduce your problem, even with the tuning machines that you currently have.

IME, I find that on my Fender and Fender-ish basses, the D & G string tend to bind up under the retainer because of the string silk, causing tension and pressure that could break the stings.

Two remedies, #1, wax the string silk that slides under the retainer. #2, buy a Gotoh raised string retainer that is about 2 or 3 millimeters taller than a stock retainer and reduces binding and possible string breakage.

Hope ya solve your issue.

 

[No Compute]

Yeah, no good option in your case. Gotta take the risks you feel comfortable with.

Just thought it might be helpful to put a little science out there before we go pointing the wrong fingers at the wrong solution is all. Only trying to help

 

[jdjk7]

*I like to do a 90 degree kink after measuring and before clipping to length.

Kinking the string is only necessary for round-core strings, so that the winding doesn't slip off the core. The corners on hex core strings will bite into the windings when tuned up, which causes that kind of slippage not to happen. In fact, some hex core strings I've tried do not allow you to kink them, because the doubled-up width of the kinked string will not sit properly in a standard Fender tuner... unless you go wild on them with a pair of pliers, which also isn't great.

 

[Snakeman1066]

How do you do it?

1. Would never cut my strings like that first off... (I donate my used strings and or recycle them)
2. I don't like to take all the tension off the neck all at once unless it's absolutely necessary ( i replace my strings one at a time )
3. There is a much better way to measure the length of the string before cutting ( i want a minimum of two complete wraps around each peg)

 

[FatStringer52]

The problem with these tuners is that the windings are forced to the bottom of the tuning shaft and can get stuck into each other when you bring the strings back up to full tension.

Can I get a little clarity here? Are you saying that the strings are so long that when they reach the bottom of the tuning peg that you still have string to wrap to bring the instrument up to pitch and you have to continue winding and over-wrapping the string back up the tuning peg? If so, in my experience, over-wrapping strings on the tuning peg is only an invitation to several issues:

1) Tuning issues - at any time an outer wrapped string can work its in between one of the inner wraps and throw the instrument out of tune. If you have multiple wraps you have multiple possibilities.

2) Over wrapping could also lead to string breakage. The fiction of the string working its way into the under wrappings creating undue wear on the string coupled with the fact that you now have to to put more tension on the string get back up to pitch is a recipe for creating weak spots.

3) Now lets talk about the design of the tuning pegs. They are designed to push the string to the bottom of the tuning peg and keep it there. This was Fender's solution (like it or not) to create a better break angle over the nut. So, if you over wrap the string and bring it back up the shaft, you're decreasing the break angle and therefore defeating the entire purpose of the fluted tuning peg. And this opens up the possibilities for even more issues with the instrument. Used properly, no one should have any issues with these tuning pegs. And this falls back to the owner knowing their instrument. You need to know how long your strings need to be, based on the gauges you use any any other various factors you can think of, to get the windings to the bottom of the shaft and keep them there. The string manufacturers make sting sets that can be [custom] fitted to many different models of basses. Just because they make the string that long does not mean you have to use that entire length of string. Just like buying a pair of insoles for your shoes, you buy for a size range and have to trim them down for your specific size.

Oh, and if not -- never mind! lol

 

[No Compute]

Wonderfully stated.

Except allow me to be pedantic on one small point (if you will), only in the interest of keeping the available information as accurate as possible. Otherwise everything is very well explained.

…therefore defeating the entire purpose of the fluted tuning peg…

I don’t know of any tuner post that is fluted. Perhaps they exist, but that would be poor mechanical design and introduce other concerns. These Fender tuners in question are tapered (and other similar designs are radiused to achieve the same function).

The outside of a standard drill bit (or reamer, or endmill) would be considered ‘fluted’ as far as a diameter is concerned. Let’s hope Fender doesn’t release any tuner posts that look like that any time soon!

 

[subdude67]

One thing to point out that did forget. This happened a few weeks ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy. I remember now I actually had to pull these strings out completely. Means, I did straighten them to pull them through the body. I put flatwounds on it for a bit. I found a defect on the bass and decided it had to be exchanged.

This changes the discussion somehat. When I remove strings with the intention to use them again I avoid straightening the kink and loops but twist them through the bridge to avoid weakening the metal. Just bend a paperclip a few times and observe it breaking.

 

[FatStringer52]

@No Compute. Thank you, you are correct. Just a poor word choice on my part. I just couldn't think of the word I was looking for. I do suffer from CRS (can't remember squat).

 

[bobyoung53]

I've actually posted about this before. It's the tapered shafts on the Fender Pro/Pro II tuning machines. They're horrible and can be added to the list of Fender's "innovations" the world really didn't need. Why can't Fender ever get it right when they try to "modernize" their classic designs? Other companies like Sandberg and Yamaha have managed to develop the P/J format into something truly great. When Fender try something new with their classic models it's usually rubbish. Don't get me wrong, I love a good Precision/Jazz and they're classics for a reason but these tuners are junk IMO.

The idea behind these tuners is of course that they will compensate for the one thing Leo Fender didn't get right: The poor break angle over the nut on the A-string. Other manufacturers have been using a retainer for the A-string for DECADES on P/J-style basses but for some reason Fender is unwilling to do this. Of course Fender use "stealth" retainers on their Ultra series but that's a lot of extra money to fix a design flaw!

The problem with these tuners is that the windings are forced to the bottom of the tuning shaft and can get stuck into each other when you bring the strings back up to full tension. This causes the strings to break at the tuner shaft. I've never had this happen when installing brand new strings but it happens unacceptably often when loosening the strings and bringing them back up to tension. I work at a guitar workshop and whenever someone brings in a Fender Pro/Pro II for a service I always pray they want new strings...

The only way to fix this is to install new tuners. If that's not an option, at least avoid loosening the tension unless you REALLY have to. With normal day-to-day use they seem to work fine. Also, when installing new strings it might be a good idea to leave as few windings as possible around the tuner shafts. It probably won't solve the problem but it might reduce the risk.

I might add that I've experience this problem far more often with silked strings, presumably because they are usually more knurled at the tapered ends of the strings and get stuck into each other more easily (Rotos are particularly prone to breakage with these tuners in my experience). But like you've seen, it can also happen with smoother, unsilked strings.

I don't like those new tuners either, don't like dinky tuners period, give me the old ones anyday, the turning ratio is way too slow too on the new ones.

 

[No Compute]

@No Compute. Thank you, you are correct. Just a poor word choice on my part. I just couldn't think of the word I was looking for. I do suffer from CRS (can't remember squat).

No apology necessary. Just trying to keep the discourse logical and fact-based.

Your post (and your question of the previous post quoted) were both spot-on

 

[FatStringer52]

No apology necessary. Just trying to keep the discourse logical and fact-based.

Your post (and your question of the previous post quoted) were both spot-on

Oh, believe me, it wasn't an apology . . . . I just wanted to give you an assist and thank you for jogging my memory! This 70-something brain sometimes needs a kick start!

Hijack over, out.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Kinking the string is only necessary for round-core strings, so that the winding doesn't slip off the core. The corners on hex core strings will bite into the windings when tuned up, which causes that kind of slippage not to happen. In fact, some hex core strings I've tried do not allow you to kink them, because the doubled-up width of the kinked string will not sit properly in a standard Fender tuner... unless you go wild on them with a pair of pliers, which also isn't great.

Huh? I don't double the string back upon itself. I bend the string 90 degrees, not 180, and cut the short limb so there's a resulting ~1/2" nubbin which fits nicely in the machine head post's center hole.

Riis

 

[No Compute]

I don't like those new tuners either, don't like dinky tuners period, give me the old ones anyday, the turning ratio is way too slow too on the new ones.

But you do understand that the reduction in tuner ratio gives you finer control over the tuner’s response, no?

Maybe it takes a few more minutes to string up a new set of strings, but that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

I’d guess you tune to pitch more frequently than you change strings? I would hope so

 

[GIBrat51]

So, I always though bass strings were incredibly hard to break. I come from guitar. Recently, changing strings on various basses I would often break them if they had been installed even once. This was on Fender tuners BTW.

For example, there's a set of new strings on a bass. I remove them from the tuning peg, pulling the coil up slowly after loosening, just to make way to oil the fretboard. Upon reinstalling, the string snaps as I'm tuning up. It snaps at the kink point, on the sharp edge of the tuning peg slot.

Is there anything you guys do to avoid this problem? So any of you perhaps file that sharp edge a bit? I can imagine it's a good anchor point to prevent slippage, but I'm sure that with the string deep in the hole of the peg, and with 3 wraps, there should be plenty of grip to not need such a sharp edge.

Simply put; metal strings - bass or guitar - do not like being pulled up tight against sharp edges. Or burrs. Lots of guitar strings meet their end by being pulled up against burrs or sharp edges of bridge saddles. Bass strings usually last a little longer when subjected to that, but... it certainly doesn't do them any good. Personally, I don't subject my strings - bass or guitar - to things like that - on either end of them. If I find sharp edges - or burrs - on any of my bridge saddles - or tuner posts? Well, that's what God invented jeweler's files for... As for needing sharp edges to hold the strings? That's a load of mule poop. Wind them around the tuner post correctly - with enough winds (I like 3 full winds, myself), and they'll stay there just fine. I have no sharp edges on any of my tuner posts - on anything I own - and I've never had a string slip on one. EVER. Get a fine file, and remove those sharp edges. Your strings will thank you...

 

[No Compute]

Don't worry junior, I have very good ears and have been playing a LONG time and know how to tune a bass, I can tune as well with my ears as with a tuner, and find slow ratio tuners a royal pain in the butt, especially onstage, you can keep them.

I’m not sure whether this is bait or not, but we’ll keep things civil. I hear you saying you have not appreciated the ability to tune accurately for a LONG time. That’s great. I wish you much success

 

[No Compute]

You may want to look into getting a hearing aid, you heard wrong. I have just about perfect relative pitch.

"I’d guess you tune to pitch more frequently than you change strings? I would hope so"

Next time try to post something without insults and we'll get along a lot better.

The only insult I can see is “junior.” But I didn’t write that.

Again, I wish you much success in all things; bass and life

 

[No Compute]

This is an insult: "I’d guess you tune to pitch more frequently than you change strings? I would hope so" This is a nice mellow place most of the time, I suggest if you plan on staying here for a while to tone it down, I've seen them come and go in the twenty years I've been here.

Actually, this is a pretty snarky and petty place from what I have seen in many years of observation. What you have emboldened is not an insult (certainly not where I hail from), but a critical response.

If you do not wish to have your theories questioned (for example, what exactly is perfect relative pitch?) don’t proclaim them so loudly without being willing to listen to the chatter they create.

As stated above, I wish you well in all things; life, love, bass, you name it

 

[No Compute]

*for clarity’s sake, it should be noted that another user has deleted multiple comments from the thread above*

Perhaps this would make more sense if those comments had not been silently retracted

 

[jdjk7]

Huh? I don't double the string back upon itself. I bend the string 90 degrees, not 180, and cut the short limb so there's a resulting ~1/2" nubbin which fits nicely in the machine head post's center hole.

Riis

I'm not sure I see the point... what does this method do that the method Fender teaches does not? Because bending the end of the string 180 degrees before it's inserted is a method, but I've never heard of someone doing what you do... It also seems like potential hassle, because the method you describe opens up the possibility of cutting the nubbin too long and ending up with the kink in the wire not actually being seated in the tuner.

 

[Killing Floor]

In 4 decades of playing bass and 30-ish years of guitar including 7 years working for a guitar manufacturing company in QC, tuning sometimes 100 guitars a day I have never seen a string break at the tuner.
That’s not the string, it’s the tuner.