Jon, do you have it back together? Enough so that you can tell if there was enough tonal gain to make the trouble worthwhile? My newish Strunal sounds kinda choked compared to my '57 Kay and I've always thought the fact that it was encased in the poly goop might be the problem....
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Double Bass Stripping and Refinishing
- Thread starter Pacman
- Start date
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,408
- 9,865
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
I'm in the process of sanding my plywood Strunal now, having stripped it a few days ago. I've been reading up on finishes and MIMF.com shows several references to using Tru-Oil and I also read the LMI article on using this stuff...it sounds fairly easy, but I'm wondering about the ability to color the Tru Oil with something like artist's oil colors like mentioned earlier for the Watlerlox. Anyone have experience with the Tru-Oil?
Tru-Oil (which I don't believe we have here in Canada) is polymerized linseed oil. What this means is that it's been heated in an oxygen-free environment to give it the properties of drying quicker and harder than plain old linseed oil from the flax plant.
Tru-Oil may have a little bit of metallic driers added to it, I can't be sure not having used it. I have used polymerized tung oil (same idea, different oil) from Lee Valley, and it's got a little bit of drying agents added. Without the drying agents, these finishes are all-natural products (but look, don't eat the stuff or anything.)
Poly oils will give you a "natural" type matte finish, with a little more protection than non-poly oil. However, any plain oil finish won't give you the protection (from dirt, basically) that a varnish or lacquer would give. On the other hand, it won't encase your axe in a thick plastic coating, either.
I've never tried colouring poly oil, but I don't see why you couldn't add pigments to it. Essentially you've got a kind of oil paint (like artists use) after that. Do lots of testing on scrap wood and take your time, hurrying is for other aspects of life, not this one.
The colour won't have that transparent quality that a real varnish/dye combo would give.
I've used poly tung oil on a few basses and other instruments, but only for refinishing necks. I hate slick-feeling necks, as do a lot of players. Poly oil works well for that.
It's prolly about the easiest type of finish to use, come to think of it.
But, I'm sure Bob Branstetter will be along soon with the REAL voice of experience!
One more thing to consider, especially if you're a cheapskate like me: poly oils ain't cheap. Then again, neither is the bass.
Tru-Oil may have a little bit of metallic driers added to it, I can't be sure not having used it. I have used polymerized tung oil (same idea, different oil) from Lee Valley, and it's got a little bit of drying agents added. Without the drying agents, these finishes are all-natural products (but look, don't eat the stuff or anything.)
Poly oils will give you a "natural" type matte finish, with a little more protection than non-poly oil. However, any plain oil finish won't give you the protection (from dirt, basically) that a varnish or lacquer would give. On the other hand, it won't encase your axe in a thick plastic coating, either.
I've never tried colouring poly oil, but I don't see why you couldn't add pigments to it. Essentially you've got a kind of oil paint (like artists use) after that. Do lots of testing on scrap wood and take your time, hurrying is for other aspects of life, not this one.
The colour won't have that transparent quality that a real varnish/dye combo would give.
I've used poly tung oil on a few basses and other instruments, but only for refinishing necks. I hate slick-feeling necks, as do a lot of players. Poly oil works well for that.
It's prolly about the easiest type of finish to use, come to think of it.
But, I'm sure Bob Branstetter will be along soon with the REAL voice of experience!
One more thing to consider, especially if you're a cheapskate like me: poly oils ain't cheap. Then again, neither is the bass.
I guess I should state that my goal was the same as Pacman's: to get the thick poly glop off an inexpensive plywood bass in hopes of improving the rather choked tone. I'm not after world-class finish here, just something reasonably attractive and easy enough that an amateur like myself can get decent results.
I hear ya. Your alternative to the poly oil is a varnish or oil varnish.
For either the poly oil or the varnish, your biggest risk is what can happen in the relatively long drying times. Don't kick up a bunch of sawdust and then apply the product...
With varnishes, you have a little more chemical complexity, with the curing time really depending on what "varnish" (the scare quotes are there because there likely isn't a more abused word in the world of woodworking) you used. It's not unusual for curing times to be measured in weeks and months (again, depending on just what's in there.)
So, in thinking this through, the oil might be the way to go. Real easy to do, anyone can do it. Straightforward chemistry and drying properties. Not as much protection as a varnish, though.
I can't think of a way to talk you out of it. Maybe someone with more experience can.
For either the poly oil or the varnish, your biggest risk is what can happen in the relatively long drying times. Don't kick up a bunch of sawdust and then apply the product...
With varnishes, you have a little more chemical complexity, with the curing time really depending on what "varnish" (the scare quotes are there because there likely isn't a more abused word in the world of woodworking) you used. It's not unusual for curing times to be measured in weeks and months (again, depending on just what's in there.)
So, in thinking this through, the oil might be the way to go. Real easy to do, anyone can do it. Straightforward chemistry and drying properties. Not as much protection as a varnish, though.
I can't think of a way to talk you out of it. Maybe someone with more experience can.
No, not me. I've never used tru oil or waterlux and probably never will. I usually use violin varnish, but I have recently experimented with Behlen's Rockhard Table top varnish colored with violin varnish color from International Violin. I have a reliable authority who says this varnish was at one time sold as Behlen's Oil violin varnish. I can't comment on how color fast the international violin colors are, but so far (about 2 years) I have not notice any significant fade.
I don't think you're going to get much of a "build" with an oil finish. You really need something with more solids to provide a protective coating for the bass, and for best tone. I think the Waterlox is an excellent choice for a relative novice finishing a plywood; it's easy to work with, dries fast and hard, and can be applied with rag or brush. 5-6 coats should be enough to protect the instrument. Bob mentioned the Behlen Rockhard varnish; I used this on some bass guitars years ago with excellent results. They also make a varnish called Water White Restoration Varnish, which is very good. Either of these will need thinning and can be pigmented.
Well, I did the deed. The polyurethane finish came off my Strunal with a reasonable amount of effort. I ended up with the oil finish, tinted with artists oil pigments, which didn't do much toward darkening. Essentially, I ended up with a blonde bass with an aged appearance...not optimal, but not too bad either. Certainly acceptable for an amatuer. If the bass were more valuable, I'd let a pro do it, though.
Got a substantial improvement in volume and resonance, which was the main goal. The bass sounds much more alive now, so I think the effort was a limited success.
Got a substantial improvement in volume and resonance, which was the main goal. The bass sounds much more alive now, so I think the effort was a limited success.
MCCHILLIN':
Did you use the alizarin crimson/burnt umber/black combination of artist oils Arnold prescribed? How did you prepare the artist oils before mixing them in the varnish?
As much as I try to avoid dredging up old threads, I feel it's only appropriate to add what I'd like to share here, since this very thread lent some great advice.
To those of you who are familiar with my work, you know that I custom-finish instruments primarily using nitro lacquer. For the most recent bass I finished, I tried my hand at oil varnish.
Invalid Link Removed has a little write-up with pics describing the methods I used to obtain an antiqued oil varnish finish. The nice thing about it is that, for you folks interested in re-finishing your existing instrument, this is do-able stuff with readily available materials and supplies, as well as a decent helping of research and a dash of patience. The bass the link discusses was finished using Behlen Rock Hard Table Top Varnish, a ready-to-use short oil varnish available at most woodworking stores. Colors were achieved using artist oil colors, as described throughout this thread. The bass still awaits final rubbing, but thus far I'm quite happy with the results.
Anyway, I wanted to share my appreciation for all the folks who offer their expertise on this forum, and thought I'd share a little of what I learned as well. Though I love my lacquer, the ideas discussed here were enough to get me to try varnish, and I'm glad I did.
To those of you who are familiar with my work, you know that I custom-finish instruments primarily using nitro lacquer. For the most recent bass I finished, I tried my hand at oil varnish.
Invalid Link Removed has a little write-up with pics describing the methods I used to obtain an antiqued oil varnish finish. The nice thing about it is that, for you folks interested in re-finishing your existing instrument, this is do-able stuff with readily available materials and supplies, as well as a decent helping of research and a dash of patience. The bass the link discusses was finished using Behlen Rock Hard Table Top Varnish, a ready-to-use short oil varnish available at most woodworking stores. Colors were achieved using artist oil colors, as described throughout this thread. The bass still awaits final rubbing, but thus far I'm quite happy with the results.
Anyway, I wanted to share my appreciation for all the folks who offer their expertise on this forum, and thought I'd share a little of what I learned as well. Though I love my lacquer, the ideas discussed here were enough to get me to try varnish, and I'm glad I did.
That looks great Brent. The only suggestion I can offer is that you try spraying it instead of brushing the next time. As good as you are with a air gun, you should be able to adapt to spraying this varnish fairly quickly. Thin the Behlen's Rock Hard varnish with (only) Rock Hard thinner/solvent to the consistancy of lacquer using a viscosity cup. You just have to remember that the stuff dries relatively slow, so you you can't spray over the same area twice or it will run. It tricky the first time or two, but it's worth the effort once you get the feel of it. David Wilson at Hammond Ashley tipped me to this several years ago, and I haven't used a brush with it since.
Thanks for the tip, Bob. There were actually two reasons why I decided against spraying... The first being that given how quickly the stuff gets sticky, I wasn't too hip to dealing with the overspray... I've heard from several folks that unlike lacquer, where the overspray floating around is already-dried finish, oil varnish stays tacky and makes you and everything else in your spray booth or area, sticky. Though I use HVLP systems for spraying, there's obviously still overspray to contend with. And second, I figured while I was giving oil varnish a whirl, I thought I'd do it the "traditional" way, with a brush -- I think it further lends to the old look I wanted to impart. But I'll definitely try spraying for varnish projects that call for high color uniformity -- you can't beat spraying for smooth, even color.
Having been there, I understand your reservations. I have an HVLP system too, but for varnish I use an old Binks 15 series touchup gun. Overspray is only a minor problem. I assume you have some sort of filtering/ventilation system and that can easily handle the overspay before it comes back to haunt you and your work. Anyway, try it sometime. You'll be surprised how well it works. BTW, when it's thinned down to spraying viscosity with rock hard thinner, it does seem to dry somewhat faster than straight out of the can.
Well, I'm sold. Looks like I was making the potential problems of spraying this stuff out to be more trouble than they really are. I'll give it a try next time 'round. Thanks again for the tips -- great stuff.
Brent, That looks fabulous.
Bob, You spray your finishes ? For some reaso I thought that was considered des riguer for luthiers.
I am about to refinish a German factory bass that someone did a really bad job of refin on.
This thread is a gem.
I' still like to see JON"S bass...C'mon DUOPAC...up wit da pics!
Bob, You spray your finishes ? For some reaso I thought that was considered des riguer for luthiers.
I am about to refinish a German factory bass that someone did a really bad job of refin on.
This thread is a gem.
I' still like to see JON"S bass...C'mon DUOPAC...up wit da pics!
Thanks, Don Corleone 
Not to speak for Bob, but look at it this way: Whether you're applying a finish using a rag, a brush, a spray gun, your hands, sticks, colanders, garden implements or telekinesis, the goal is 100% the same -- to simply transfer finish from a container to the surface of your project. Setting aside the rubbing part of the finishing equation, when properly done, spraying allows for very uniform, relatively flat finishes free of brush strokes or other anomolies associated with hand application. Guns give you great control over subtle shading, bold bursts, even toning and the build of the finish. The down-sides are that guns will never be as transfer-efficient as using a brush, and the using them requires serious ventilation/filtration and other additional safety and environmental considerations.
There are also endless aesthetic factors in choosing your finish and application method... Is it a new instrument? What kind -- plywood? Carved? Is it a refin job? A touch-up or blend? What kind of look am I trying to acheive and what level of tone preservation am I after? And on and on...
Blah blah blah.... you knew all that, right? The bottom line is that luthiers and finishers should and do select the most appropriate methods of application to acheive the desired result. Again, speaking only for me, if spraying's so wrong, then I don't wanna be right.
Not to speak for Bob, but look at it this way: Whether you're applying a finish using a rag, a brush, a spray gun, your hands, sticks, colanders, garden implements or telekinesis, the goal is 100% the same -- to simply transfer finish from a container to the surface of your project. Setting aside the rubbing part of the finishing equation, when properly done, spraying allows for very uniform, relatively flat finishes free of brush strokes or other anomolies associated with hand application. Guns give you great control over subtle shading, bold bursts, even toning and the build of the finish. The down-sides are that guns will never be as transfer-efficient as using a brush, and the using them requires serious ventilation/filtration and other additional safety and environmental considerations.
There are also endless aesthetic factors in choosing your finish and application method... Is it a new instrument? What kind -- plywood? Carved? Is it a refin job? A touch-up or blend? What kind of look am I trying to acheive and what level of tone preservation am I after? And on and on...
Blah blah blah.... you knew all that, right? The bottom line is that luthiers and finishers should and do select the most appropriate methods of application to acheive the desired result. Again, speaking only for me, if spraying's so wrong, then I don't wanna be right.
Don, for the most part Brent has already answered your question. I just want to add that I use what is appropriate for the finish I'm using. Behlens Rock Hard varnish is a border line finish as far a spraying is concerned. It's one of the very few oil varnishes that can be sprayed successfully, but even then it's very tricky to use and requires a person who is very experienced in spraying to make it work. I still use brushes for most of the traditional slow drying violin oil varnishes.Don Zebrauskas said:
For anyone interested, I added a little to my Invalid Link Removed, including a little bit on the rub-down and some pics of the final results.
