Struggling Scorpion Speaker—Help, Please

[agedhorse]

The 700 watt cabinet is really 350 watts RMS, so factor this into the logic. What drivers do the “400 watt boxes” have, perhaps they too are not rated in RMS metrics?

This is not uncommon, an unrealistic expectation of a speaker’s capabilities based on not understanding the metrics. It’s also the cause of a fair number of unintentionally blown speakers,

 

[mexicanyella]

I don’t think the 1516 has any Scorpions in it; the badge says “BW EQUIPPED,” the 15 sure looks like a BW, and the 8s don’t have the gray, squared off, stamped look of Scorpions. The back has two full-range inputs and a high and low for bi-amping. I’ve tried both of the full range inputs.

Heeeeeeeeere’s Captain Pedantic!!!!!!!!!!!

Scorpions are not stamped. They are cast. I have had the Scorpion 15 out of my TKO115S and the Scorpion 12 out of my (open-backed) Special 150 and the basket is definitely not a stamped piece.
They do look like they might have been cast in a struggling Eastern European country on the sixth Friday of the month after the state-sponsored potato fermenting festival. But what they lack in casting finish they make up in sheer volume of cast basket metal.

Strength through weight, that’s the Scorpion way.

 

[BogeyBass]

The issue only happens when I use the Mark IV head with the 400w cabs. Mesa Buster into 400w cab performs just fine.

ahh that is why i was asking questions, most likely already mentioned...but

im trying to isolate if its a cab issue or a amp issue.

since the buster doesnt seem to cause the issue.
id listen to your cabs for awhile with the buster.
at different levels.
possibly rotate speaker cables just for fun.

If the cabs dont crackle, then its not a cab issue

 

[basscooker]

So one cab works fine with the PV amp? The others do not? What about the impedance? Isnt the 1516 4 ohm? You might be putting more power than you realize into your cabs. I also thought the 1516 cabs were notorious for crossover trouble. Could there be an issue there and your 1516 is actually currently a 2 ohm cab?

Really does seem more like the amp doesn't like something. Maybe the amp is manifesting symptoms but the problem does lie in the cabs. Ugh sorry for your headache.

Simple to try, but have you given all of your pots a good workout? Have you patched fx send/return? Blown out the faders?

Good luck. Sorry to hear your rig has a cold.

 

[Riff Ranger]

So one cab works fine with the PV amp? The others do not? What about the impedance? Isnt the 1516 4 ohm? You might be putting more power than you realize into your cabs. I also thought the 1516 cabs were notorious for crossover trouble. Could there be an issue there and your 1516 is actually currently a 2 ohm cab?

Really does seem more like the amp doesn't like something. Maybe the amp is manifesting symptoms but the problem does lie in the cabs. Ugh sorry for your headache.

Simple to try, but have you given all of your pots a good workout? Have you patched fx send/return? Blown out the faders?

Good luck. Sorry to hear your rig has a cold.

While the issue is more pronounced with the 1516, it still shows up reliably in the 400w 4 ohm Scorpion 1x15, which has no crossover to complicate matters. I suspect I notice it more with the 1516 because it puts out more highs than the single 15. As the 1516 works just fine with the one other amp I can throw at it, I also suspect something in the Peavey head, but again, it has zero problem with the 700w 4 ohm Black Widow 1x15.

 

[Riff Ranger]

The 700 watt cabinet is really 350 watts RMS, so factor this into the logic. What drivers do the “400 watt boxes” have, perhaps they too are not rated in RMS metrics?

This is not uncommon, an unrealistic expectation of a speaker’s capabilities based on not understanding the metrics. It’s also the cause of a fair number of unintentionally blown speakers,

The original driver in question was a 15" Scorpion; the newer-to-me cab has a 15" Black Widow and two 8" speakers (possibly Black Widows as well, definitely not Scorpions as in some older 1516 cabs). It seems odd that Peavey cabs wouldn't handle what the Peavey amps of the era were throwing at them, but of course these things are now all older than B-15s were when I started playing in the early '90s. It also seems odd that the 1516 handles the 200 watts from my Mesa Buster without issue, but routinely can't handle 200 watts from this Peavey head.

 

[agedhorse]

Ahhhh, the Scorpion is not a 400 watt driver, it’s 200 watts RMS.

I think that maybe the issue you are having is due in part to a lack of understanding about power ratings.

Perhaps what you are experiencing is a near death speaker driven event and unrealistic expectations rather than an amp problem?

While the issue is more pronounced with the 1516, it still shows up reliably in the 400w 4 ohm Scorpion 1x15, which has no crossover to complicate matters. I suspect I notice it more with the 1516 because it puts out more highs than the single 15. As the 1516 works just fine with the one other amp I can throw at it, I also suspect something in the Peavey head, but again, it has zero problem with the 700w 4 ohm Black Widow 1x15.

 

[BogeyBass]

overpowering the speakers is likely assumption. something that crossed my mind.
but speakers dont fix themselves. so when i caught hint that the problem went away with another amp.

I just left it at that, listen to the speakers with the supposed non crackling head at low and higher levels.
if no more problems, probably looking at a amp issue.

if a amp problem its the internet guessing game lol.
bad jacks input or channel sends /return speaker jacks
low bias etc etc. I think the send/return is already jumped for operation.
so could be a previous channel switching issue that is peaking in its ugly head.

1516 is the higher powered speaker and is a more apparent problem, its why i assumed maybe crossover issue. then again the single scorpion speaker does it too.
Could be random, but could amp issues. Squeals at shutdown can be normal for a amp.
but if its a new thing. your looking at higher frequency oscillation. being more obvious at
shutdown. If a crossover cab, is pisssing the amp off more. it could lead to more internet guessing lol. Are we looking at low bias, speaker connectors, effect loops or the output of the amplifier in general
like output zobel network or basic connections of those components etc etc etc .

damaged speakers is likely but don't think they fix themselves. if there is no crackle at higher levels, it would be reassuring were not chasing cabinet issues.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Ahhhh, the Scorpion is not a 400 watt driver, it’s 200 watts RMS.

I think that maybe the issue you are having is due in part to a lack of understanding about power ratings.

Perhaps what you are experiencing is a near death speaker driven event and unrealistic expectations rather than an amp problem?

Not surprisingly, you’re right. I had another look at the back of the 1516 and saw this:

Two things I still don’t understand:

-I suppose I could have pushed it harder, but I had fairly cranked my 200w Mesa Buster into the 1516 without any (apparent) trouble. Was I just lucky? Does the DDT on the Peavey get crackling before speakers blow?

-Why would Peavey make cabinets that couldn’t handle what their own heads of the time were putting out? Hot pickups, 5-strings, and heavy handed playing certainly existed when these heads and cabs came out, so I don’t think I’m throwing an unprecedented situation at them. The cabs in question here are newer than this head that apparently pushes them too hard, and from what I can tell, their later heads put out more power, not less.

 

[Riff Ranger]

So one cab works fine with the PV amp? The others do not? What about the impedance? Isnt the 1516 4 ohm? You might be putting more power than you realize into your cabs. I also thought the 1516 cabs were notorious for crossover trouble. Could there be an issue there and your 1516 is actually currently a 2 ohm cab?

Really does seem more like the amp doesn't like something. Maybe the amp is manifesting symptoms but the problem does lie in the cabs. Ugh sorry for your headache.

Simple to try, but have you given all of your pots a good workout? Have you patched fx send/return? Blown out the faders?

Good luck. Sorry to hear your rig has a cold.

Fortunately (I guess), my old Peavey rig is really just for my own amusement. I have a TKO for smaller jobs and my Mesa Buster for bigger jobs if they ever come, not to mention some good gear for going direct. I’m also about to move out of state, so losing a couple of 70–80-pound cabs if anybody will take them isn’t necessarily a bad thing at this point. If I want a bigger rig that can handle what I throw out there, I just might finally have to go the majillion-watt-5-pound-head-on-40-pound-cabs route.

 

[agedhorse]

It's possible that your Peavey amp has more sub-sonic lows that the Buster does not, adding to the difference. Speaker power handling falls as the frequency falls. More low end than the speaker can handle (too much power at low frequencies) can certainly be the issue.

What kind of eq are you using with your amps? Boosting the low end on the Peavey by chance? Isn't it rated for a little more power as well?

 

[Riff Ranger]

It's possible that your Peavey amp has more sub-sonic lows that the Buster does not, adding to the difference. Speaker power handling falls as the frequency falls. More low end than the speaker can handle (too much power at low frequencies) can certainly be the issue.

What kind of eq are you using with your amps? Boosting the low end on the Peavey by chance? Isn't it rated for a little more power as well?

Both channels engaged (which is probably nuts, but I learned on a Mark III so it makes sense to me). I turn off the bright switches and back off the highest slider with the 1516, and bump up the middle two sliders just a hair with my scoopier instruments (this setting’s for a Fender P with a Seymour Duncan Quarter Pound pickup). Turn down all gain knobs a hair if using two cabs …

… which does mean 300 watts at 2 ohms, but I get crackling with the lower-rated cabs even on their own (210 watts at 4 ohms).

The tech who last serviced my Buster said mine actually put out something like 205 watts. I hear Mesa tends not to inflate these ratings

 

[Riff Ranger]

It's possible that your Peavey amp has more sub-sonic lows that the Buster does not, adding to the difference. Speaker power handling falls as the frequency falls. More low end than the speaker can handle (too much power at low frequencies) can certainly be the issue.

What kind of eq are you using with your amps? Boosting the low end on the Peavey by chance? Isn't it rated for a little more power as well?

My pickups (SDQPs or stock ATKs and Furies) do put out more raw low end than a typical P or J, but nothing ridiculous.

 

[agedhorse]

Try using less bass EQ on the top channel.

Does the comp led flash when is sounds bad?

 

[Riff Ranger]

It's possible that your Peavey amp has more sub-sonic lows that the Buster does not, adding to the difference.

My Buster combo sits on the floor, so I probably don’t have as much low bass dialed in as I do with the Peavey, either. It certainly sounded that way when I plugged Buster into the 1516 before adjusting settings. It still worked fine even after a quick adjustment, but it does seem that the Peavey puts out more subs as you say. I should have an opportunity to see how the Peavey setup performs with an EQ adjustment soon.

 

[Riff Ranger]

Try using less bass EQ on the top channel.

Does the comp led flash when is sounds bad?

Three pages and a few weeks into the issue (and more than a quarter century of playing), and “turn down the bass knob” seems to be the answer Backed the top channel’s L/M/H off to 5/7/6 (from 7/8/7) and it not only seems to eliminate the crackling issue, it just sounds better. It would seem I had found the lighter duty cabs’ limits? If so, I like the sound better on this side of those limits, anyway. I’m guessing 2 ohm, 300 watt operation won’t end well with the lighter duty cabs, but at least everything seems to work as it should.

The “COMP” LED does still come on with pretty much every low note. I don’t really understand why the gain knobs go to 10 if you can’t use them above 2, but whatever. I get my old Peavey jollies at enough volume for my purposes, and probably just have to decide which cab(s) stay and go now that I have a better idea of their capabilities. As those upper mids seem most important to me, the 1516 probably makes the most sense.

If I want to get stupid loud, Buster seems to know just what to do with 200 watts.

Thank you for taking an interest, everybody. Old amps are fun—with a troubleshooting team a click away.

 

[BogeyBass]

Nothing a 6x15 wont fix

 

[agedhorse]

Three pages and a few weeks into the issue (and more than a quarter century of playing), and “turn down the bass knob” seems to be the answer Backed the top channel’s L/M/H off to 5/7/6 (from 7/8/7) and it not only seems to eliminate the crackling issue, it just sounds better. It would seem I had found the lighter duty cabs’ limits? If so, I like the sound better on this side of those limits, anyway. I’m guessing 2 ohm, 300 watt operation won’t end well with the lighter duty cabs, but at least everything seems to work as it should.

The “COMP” LED does still come on with pretty much every low note. I don’t really understand why the gain knobs go to 10 if you can’t use them above 2, but whatever. I get my old Peavey jollies at enough volume for my purposes, and probably just have to decide which cab(s) stay and go now that I have a better idea of their capabilities. As those upper mids seem most important to me, the 1516 probably makes the most sense.

If I want to get stupid loud, Buster seems to know just what to do with 200 watts.

Thank you for taking an interest, everybody. Old amps are fun—with a troubleshooting team a click away.

Yup, this is why I encourage step by step troubleshooting, It's so much more effective and easier than wild ass guessing. Cheaper too

 

[hbarcat]

Actually, it was a popular guitar speaker as well as being used in some PA applications.

About 20 years ago, I happened to acquire a pair of 15" Scorpions and decided to use them as the basis of a custom 3 way PA cabinet build - simply as a learning experience.

I used WinISD to design the cabs and ports. Mids are Eminence Alpha 6as and Eminence horn tweets are on top.

Naturally, I'm limited to the amount of low end boom the Scorpions can handle, but they sound amazingly good for modest gigs and I've gotten lots of compliments about how clean and articulate they sound at all frequencies.

Black Widows get all the praise but I think the Scorpions are very under appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 365158]

Great trouble shooting thread to stumble upon!
Good lesson in gain staging.